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I get a bit tired of the hype over different types of "Green" vehicles. The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.

See the blog post below for the rest...I don't want to write it again.

http://scootinfool.blogspot.com/2015/10 ... to-go.html

honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.

Not so.
Aberdeen has a fleet of 10 VanHool A330 buses which are fuelled by hydrogen.
The hydrogen is manufactured in a plant powered by non-fossil generated electricity.
http://aberdeeninvestlivevisit.co.uk/In ... oject.aspx

Hydrogen is one of the very worst "upside-down" forms of energy. What process was used for extracting/concentrating the hydrogen? Electrolysis? Super heating with natural gas? Bad example of "green", there. That solar plant doesn't "stand alone". It takes a whole lot more energy to get the hydrogen into a useful form than is derived from it's use. Way more energy into, than out of it. I agree it would be very nice NOT to burn things to derive energy, but hydrogen has a way to go to offset that.
Sadly, there's still no "free lunch". Nuclear is about the cleanest there is in terms of emissions "in use". Hydrogen is way up there, depending on the means of getting into a useful form. It really is the "Holy Grail", right up there with a controllable fusion reactor.

j.d.b. wrote:Hydrogen is one of the very worst "upside-down" forms of energy. What process was used for extracting/concentrating the hydrogen? Electrolysis? Super heating with natural gas? Bad example of "green", there. That solar plant doesn't "stand alone". It takes a whole lot more energy to get the hydrogen into a useful form than is derived from it's use. Way more energy into, than out of it. I agree it would be very nice NOT to burn things to derive energy, but hydrogen has a way to go to offset that.
Sadly, there's still no "free lunch". Nuclear is about the cleanest there is in terms of emissions "in use". Hydrogen is way up there, depending on the means of getting into a useful form. It really is the "Holy Grail", right up there with a controllable fusion reactor.

+1

j.d.b. wrote:It takes a whole lot more energy to get the hydrogen into a useful form than is derived from it's use.

That's true, but all you need to do is stick up enough windmills and the amount of energy required becomes utterly irrelevant.
Scotland's biggest source of electricity is from renewables: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... wer-source
Its unlikely wind will run out any time soon, fossil fuels on the other hand have a finite life.

honkerman wrote:I get a bit tired of the hype over different types of "Green" vehicles. The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.

yep, you have to get a second job, flip more burgers and use more fuel to cook them to afford the batteries when they expire and on Segway that's 2000.00 usd every three years plus the impact of destroying them so your footprint is BIG like fricken sasquatch. Best just put petrol and save the planet.

gn2 wrote:

honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.

Not so.
Aberdeen has a fleet of 10 VanHool A330 buses which are fuelled by hydrogen.
The hydrogen is manufactured in a plant powered by non-fossil generated electricity.
http://aberdeeninvestlivevisit.co.uk/In ... oject.aspx

Seriously GN2 don't open up any argument like this to a North Amercan, especially to those dimmest and most focussed from the USA. Youre on a hiding to nothing.

Needs a gun to sort it out

Yes, guns for every problem. If a gun doesn't work, get a larger caliber. [NOT!]

'Specially here in Texas. Yee Haw!

P.S. an electric car would be perfect for me:3-4 -mile commute and rarely venture out of town (by car, anyway).

P.P.S. I thought those buses were Haggis-powered.

gn2 wrote:

j.d.b. wrote:It takes a whole lot more energy to get the hydrogen into a useful form than is derived from it's use.

That's true, but all you need to do is stick up enough windmills and the amount of energy required becomes utterly irrelevant.
Scotland's biggest source of electricity is from renewables: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... wer-source
Its unlikely wind will run out any time soon, fossil fuels on the other hand have a finite life.

But wind turbine spoils the look of the golf walkers scenic views don't they.

This is what I want to see killing all the bugs and birds. Looks great, yeah?

j.d.b. wrote:This is what I want to see killing all the bugs and birds. Looks great, yeah?

Yeah, there's a downside to all types of energy production.

Wind: Kills birds by the thousands
Hydro: Kills fish and compromizes ecosystems.
Coal: has to be mined and even "clean coal" puts polutants into the air
Nuclear: possibility of accidents causing radioactive fallout (see Chernobyl). Additionally, the Uranium needs to be mined in the first place.

There is no perfect answer.

you you wrote:

gn2 wrote:

honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.

Not so.
Aberdeen has a fleet of 10 VanHool A330 buses which are fuelled by hydrogen.
The hydrogen is manufactured in a plant powered by non-fossil generated electricity.
http://aberdeeninvestlivevisit.co.uk/In ... oject.aspx

Seriously GN2 don't open up any argument like this to a North Amercan, especially to those dimmest and most focussed from the USA. Youre on a hiding to nothing.

Needs a gun to sort it out

Wow...You're not much of a bigot are ya...sheesh. Stereotypes and those who propagate them are a disease.

gn2 wrote:

honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.

Not so.
Aberdeen has a fleet of 10 VanHool A330 buses which are fuelled by hydrogen.
The hydrogen is manufactured in a plant powered by non-fossil generated electricity.
http://aberdeeninvestlivevisit.co.uk/In ... oject.aspx

This is interesting. Not something I'm familiar with, but then my article was more aimed at people living in the states and the way that alternate fuel vehicles affect us here. I can't (and didn't) speak for other countries because my experience and knowledge of the use of electric and hydrogen vehicles is limited.

I will read the article.

hmmm...not really much there.

One thing to bear in mind is that even if the hydrogen comes from a "renewable" source, hydrocarbons are still used in the manufacture of the vehicles, as well as metals and other materials that must be obtained through process that are potentially dangerous to the local ecosystems from whiche they are derived.

Bash On! wrote:Yes, guns for every problem. If a gun doesn't work, get a larger caliber. [NOT!]

'Specially here in Texas. Yee Haw!

P.S. an electric car would be perfect for me:3-4 -mile commute and rarely venture out of town (by car, anyway).

P.P.S. I thought those buses were Haggis-powered.

gonzales.jpg

I also could use an electric car, and considered one, but after doing the math, it was still cheaper in the long run to keep my Jag for bad weather days and buy a new scooter (which is the PCX). Electric cars are so much more expensive than their hydrocarbon burning counterparts that they just aren't a financially viable option at this point. The fuel savings just don't outweigh the overall cost.

honkerman wrote:I can't (and didn't) speak for other countries because my experience and knowledge of the use of electric and hydrogen vehicles is limited.

Actually you made a blanket statement which was entirely wrong no matter what country you are in.

FYI, there have been hydrogen fuel cell buses operating in the USA for the last fifteen years.

gn2 wrote:

honkerman wrote:I can't (and didn't) speak for other countries because my experience and knowledge of the use of electric and hydrogen vehicles is limited.

Actually you made a blanket statement which was entirely wrong no matter what country you are in.

FYI, there have been hydrogen fuel cell buses operating in the USA for the last fifteen years.

Entirely wrong? Somewhere along the way, in the construction, use, or maintenance of any vehicle, fossil fuels are used. At the very least, the tires are made from fossil fuels, as are any rubber gaskets, bushings and so on.

The bus thing is interesting, but again, the blog post wasn't about mass transit, but rather personal transportation. I'm glad to see that indeed there are Hydrogen powered buses here in the states in a few cities, but it still doesn't have pertinence to a discussion of personal transport.

My next new car will be electric.

honkerman wrote:Entirely wrong?

You said this:

honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.

Key word "operates".
Using existing technology vehicles can be operated without recourse to fossil fuels as an energy source.

So yes, entirely wrong.

The hydrogen fuel cell isn't a new idea, but hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are as much of a leap forward as moving from steam to internal combustion.

dkazzed wrote:My next new car will be electric.

Scalectric?

Aside from all of this there is one thing that is holding back progress in the hydrogen fuel arena. There are very few refueling points for hydrogen fuel. An electric car can be plugged into your home electrical system, but hydrogen as a fuel has yet to be made widely available due to this one major problem. Every gas station in the world would have to be retrofitted for hydrogen refueling. When it becomes simple enough that we can fill the tanks with water, then it will no longer be as much of a problem, but it is my understanding that there is more to it than just adding water at the moment. I am curious as to how this will all work out in the end, though. I think the concept is great.