I get a bit tired of the hype over different types of "Green" vehicles. The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.
See the blog post below for the rest...I don't want to write it again.
honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.
Not so.
Aberdeen has a fleet of 10 VanHool A330 buses which are fuelled by hydrogen.
The hydrogen is manufactured in a plant powered by non-fossil generated electricity. http://aberdeeninvestlivevisit.co.uk/In ... oject.aspx
Four decades on two wheels has taught me nothing, all advice given is guaranteed to be wrong
Hydrogen is one of the very worst "upside-down" forms of energy. What process was used for extracting/concentrating the hydrogen? Electrolysis? Super heating with natural gas? Bad example of "green", there. That solar plant doesn't "stand alone". It takes a whole lot more energy to get the hydrogen into a useful form than is derived from it's use. Way more energy into, than out of it. I agree it would be very nice NOT to burn things to derive energy, but hydrogen has a way to go to offset that.
Sadly, there's still no "free lunch". Nuclear is about the cleanest there is in terms of emissions "in use". Hydrogen is way up there, depending on the means of getting into a useful form. It really is the "Holy Grail", right up there with a controllable fusion reactor.
j.d.b. wrote:Hydrogen is one of the very worst "upside-down" forms of energy. What process was used for extracting/concentrating the hydrogen? Electrolysis? Super heating with natural gas? Bad example of "green", there. That solar plant doesn't "stand alone". It takes a whole lot more energy to get the hydrogen into a useful form than is derived from it's use. Way more energy into, than out of it. I agree it would be very nice NOT to burn things to derive energy, but hydrogen has a way to go to offset that.
Sadly, there's still no "free lunch". Nuclear is about the cleanest there is in terms of emissions "in use". Hydrogen is way up there, depending on the means of getting into a useful form. It really is the "Holy Grail", right up there with a controllable fusion reactor.
+1
Other rides
Yamaha MT-01, Yamaha BT1100, Yamaha WR250R, Ducati 900 GTS, Honda VFR 750FV, Honda Forza 350
j.d.b. wrote:It takes a whole lot more energy to get the hydrogen into a useful form than is derived from it's use.
That's true, but all you need to do is stick up enough windmills and the amount of energy required becomes utterly irrelevant.
Scotland's biggest source of electricity is from renewables: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... wer-source
Its unlikely wind will run out any time soon, fossil fuels on the other hand have a finite life.
Four decades on two wheels has taught me nothing, all advice given is guaranteed to be wrong
honkerman wrote:I get a bit tired of the hype over different types of "Green" vehicles. The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.
yep, you have to get a second job, flip more burgers and use more fuel to cook them to afford the batteries when they expire and on Segway that's 2000.00 usd every three years plus the impact of destroying them so your footprint is BIG like fricken sasquatch. Best just put petrol and save the planet.
honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.
Not so.
Aberdeen has a fleet of 10 VanHool A330 buses which are fuelled by hydrogen.
The hydrogen is manufactured in a plant powered by non-fossil generated electricity. http://aberdeeninvestlivevisit.co.uk/In ... oject.aspx
Seriously GN2 don't open up any argument like this to a North Amercan, especially to those dimmest and most focussed from the USA. Youre on a hiding to nothing.
Yes, guns for every problem. If a gun doesn't work, get a larger caliber. [NOT!]
'Specially here in Texas. Yee Haw!
P.S. an electric car would be perfect for me:3-4 -mile commute and rarely venture out of town (by car, anyway).
P.P.S. I thought those buses were Haggis-powered.
gonzales.jpg (7.68 KiB) Viewed 2602 times
2013 PCX 150 [now an ex-bike, soon to be consigned to the bottom line of the sig]
2013 Silver Wing ABS (Black)
1971 BMW R75/5 (White)
Too many ex-bikes to list, and, besides, who really cares what we used to own?
j.d.b. wrote:It takes a whole lot more energy to get the hydrogen into a useful form than is derived from it's use.
That's true, but all you need to do is stick up enough windmills and the amount of energy required becomes utterly irrelevant.
Scotland's biggest source of electricity is from renewables: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... wer-source
Its unlikely wind will run out any time soon, fossil fuels on the other hand have a finite life.
But wind turbine spoils the look of the golf walkers scenic views don't they.
j.d.b. wrote:This is what I want to see killing all the bugs and birds. Looks great, yeah?
Yeah, there's a downside to all types of energy production.
Wind: Kills birds by the thousands
Hydro: Kills fish and compromizes ecosystems.
Coal: has to be mined and even "clean coal" puts polutants into the air
Nuclear: possibility of accidents causing radioactive fallout (see Chernobyl). Additionally, the Uranium needs to be mined in the first place.
There is no perfect answer.
Paul Smith
scootinfool.blogspot.com
Scootin' Fool on YouTube
Lancaster County Pennsylvania
2013 Honda PCX-150 (Angry Hornet) - Leo Vince Corsa Exhaust, NCY Variator (13g Rollers), NCY shocks, Givi D322S windscreen, NCY drum brake actuator arm, Denali Soundbomb mini horn
2006 Piaggio Beverly 250 (Rosa)
honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.
Not so.
Aberdeen has a fleet of 10 VanHool A330 buses which are fuelled by hydrogen.
The hydrogen is manufactured in a plant powered by non-fossil generated electricity. http://aberdeeninvestlivevisit.co.uk/In ... oject.aspx
Seriously GN2 don't open up any argument like this to a North Amercan, especially to those dimmest and most focussed from the USA. Youre on a hiding to nothing.
Needs a gun to sort it out
Wow...You're not much of a bigot are ya...sheesh. Stereotypes and those who propagate them are a disease.
Paul Smith
scootinfool.blogspot.com
Scootin' Fool on YouTube
Lancaster County Pennsylvania
2013 Honda PCX-150 (Angry Hornet) - Leo Vince Corsa Exhaust, NCY Variator (13g Rollers), NCY shocks, Givi D322S windscreen, NCY drum brake actuator arm, Denali Soundbomb mini horn
2006 Piaggio Beverly 250 (Rosa)
honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.
Not so.
Aberdeen has a fleet of 10 VanHool A330 buses which are fuelled by hydrogen.
The hydrogen is manufactured in a plant powered by non-fossil generated electricity. http://aberdeeninvestlivevisit.co.uk/In ... oject.aspx
This is interesting. Not something I'm familiar with, but then my article was more aimed at people living in the states and the way that alternate fuel vehicles affect us here. I can't (and didn't) speak for other countries because my experience and knowledge of the use of electric and hydrogen vehicles is limited.
I will read the article.
hmmm...not really much there.
One thing to bear in mind is that even if the hydrogen comes from a "renewable" source, hydrocarbons are still used in the manufacture of the vehicles, as well as metals and other materials that must be obtained through process that are potentially dangerous to the local ecosystems from whiche they are derived.
Paul Smith
scootinfool.blogspot.com
Scootin' Fool on YouTube
Lancaster County Pennsylvania
2013 Honda PCX-150 (Angry Hornet) - Leo Vince Corsa Exhaust, NCY Variator (13g Rollers), NCY shocks, Givi D322S windscreen, NCY drum brake actuator arm, Denali Soundbomb mini horn
2006 Piaggio Beverly 250 (Rosa)
Bash On! wrote:Yes, guns for every problem. If a gun doesn't work, get a larger caliber. [NOT!]
'Specially here in Texas. Yee Haw!
P.S. an electric car would be perfect for me:3-4 -mile commute and rarely venture out of town (by car, anyway).
P.P.S. I thought those buses were Haggis-powered.
gonzales.jpg
I also could use an electric car, and considered one, but after doing the math, it was still cheaper in the long run to keep my Jag for bad weather days and buy a new scooter (which is the PCX). Electric cars are so much more expensive than their hydrocarbon burning counterparts that they just aren't a financially viable option at this point. The fuel savings just don't outweigh the overall cost.
Paul Smith
scootinfool.blogspot.com
Scootin' Fool on YouTube
Lancaster County Pennsylvania
2013 Honda PCX-150 (Angry Hornet) - Leo Vince Corsa Exhaust, NCY Variator (13g Rollers), NCY shocks, Givi D322S windscreen, NCY drum brake actuator arm, Denali Soundbomb mini horn
2006 Piaggio Beverly 250 (Rosa)
honkerman wrote:I can't (and didn't) speak for other countries because my experience and knowledge of the use of electric and hydrogen vehicles is limited.
Actually you made a blanket statement which was entirely wrong no matter what country you are in.
FYI, there have been hydrogen fuel cell buses operating in the USA for the last fifteen years.
Four decades on two wheels has taught me nothing, all advice given is guaranteed to be wrong
honkerman wrote:I can't (and didn't) speak for other countries because my experience and knowledge of the use of electric and hydrogen vehicles is limited.
Actually you made a blanket statement which was entirely wrong no matter what country you are in.
FYI, there have been hydrogen fuel cell buses operating in the USA for the last fifteen years.
Entirely wrong? Somewhere along the way, in the construction, use, or maintenance of any vehicle, fossil fuels are used. At the very least, the tires are made from fossil fuels, as are any rubber gaskets, bushings and so on.
The bus thing is interesting, but again, the blog post wasn't about mass transit, but rather personal transportation. I'm glad to see that indeed there are Hydrogen powered buses here in the states in a few cities, but it still doesn't have pertinence to a discussion of personal transport.
Paul Smith
scootinfool.blogspot.com
Scootin' Fool on YouTube
Lancaster County Pennsylvania
2013 Honda PCX-150 (Angry Hornet) - Leo Vince Corsa Exhaust, NCY Variator (13g Rollers), NCY shocks, Givi D322S windscreen, NCY drum brake actuator arm, Denali Soundbomb mini horn
2006 Piaggio Beverly 250 (Rosa)
honkerman wrote:The reality is, there isn't any kind of alternative fueled vehicle that operates without some kind of fossil fuel providing energy somewhere along the way.
Key word "operates".
Using existing technology vehicles can be operated without recourse to fossil fuels as an energy source.
So yes, entirely wrong.
The hydrogen fuel cell isn't a new idea, but hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are as much of a leap forward as moving from steam to internal combustion.
Four decades on two wheels has taught me nothing, all advice given is guaranteed to be wrong
Aside from all of this there is one thing that is holding back progress in the hydrogen fuel arena. There are very few refueling points for hydrogen fuel. An electric car can be plugged into your home electrical system, but hydrogen as a fuel has yet to be made widely available due to this one major problem. Every gas station in the world would have to be retrofitted for hydrogen refueling. When it becomes simple enough that we can fill the tanks with water, then it will no longer be as much of a problem, but it is my understanding that there is more to it than just adding water at the moment. I am curious as to how this will all work out in the end, though. I think the concept is great.
Currently own:
Red 2013 Honda PCX150 Givi tall windshield & tailbox - Lots of extra lights Custom seat from Thailand - Bad Boy Airhorn Takegawa Lowering Shocks - Michelin City Grip Tires Headlight assy upgraded to LEDs w/HS5 main bulbs NCY variator, drive face, and rollers