Is it the transmission?

[Valiant]

Okay, so my last working setup was:
-10g rollers.
-2015 Yuminashi Speed Control Variator.
-Stock clutch & clutch bell.
-Stock center spring.
-NCY torque driver.

I then changed to this setup:
-Daytona variator.
-10g sliders.
-Takegawa +11% center spring.
-Malossi delta clutch & wing bell.
-2x 0.5mm washers(for the variator).
-KN Planning torque driver.

That setup eliminated the takeoff delay, but top speed stopped around 60.5 mph, even when going downhill. At this point, I tried running it on the stand and got around 87 mph. I tried putting the stock center spring back in, but that just brought back the takeoff delay(much worse this time, maybe 3-4 seconds before I would move), and didn't address the issue. It still stopped accelerating at 60.5 mph. The rpms would simply go straight up at that speed instead of producing more speed.

Okay, so I tried changing to 12g sliders. It ran on the road at full top speed for about a week, and then it also started to stop at 60.5 mph, where it was pulling around 7700 rpms, then the rpms would shoot straight up to the limiter, but the speed wouldn't increase at all.

Took the vario apart, but I didn't find any accumulation of crud that would explain it, and it wouldn't support my theory of the sliders being pulled out of position. So I had the NCY vario put back in with 10g rollers, and I took out both the 0.5mm washers. Still no dice. At this point I tried running it on the stand and couldn't get past 67 mph on the speedo.

At this point, I'm thinking it's the KN Planning torque driver, as it only has two sets:
-Straighter(lesser) angle, but banana shaped slots.
-Steeper(greater, closer to 45 degrees) angle, but smooth and straight slots.

I only used the steep angle the whole time as I expected the banana slots would cause my rpms to drop while riding. So I changed back to the NCY torque driver and used the lesser angle straight slots. Having determined it wasn't a problem caused by the sliders, I went back to the Daytona variator but with 13g sliders this time.

It ran exactly as it did before, and I got 71 mph on the GPS. I then tried running it today, and the problem popped up again, only it stopped at about 65 mph. Same issue, it pulls nicely at 7700-7800 rpms, hits 65, then the rpms shoot straight up without increasing my speed. I made a stop, decided to double-check that my rpm limiter is raised(previous run I thought I took it off, but I saw it bouncing off the limiter at 9600 rpms), then made another run. That time, rpms wouldn't go above 9100, but I went up to 72.3 mph(which is normal).


Both me and my mechanic are stumped. A clutch problem would reveal any issues at takeoff. Changing the center spring didn't do anything in an earlier run. The parts are nowhere near old enough to wear a groove into any of the pulley faces. My mechanic didn't note any issues with the drive belt(which still has less than 2000 miles and is reinforced). He also tells me that transmission problems are usually consistent and wouldn't suddenly jump around between runs. I'm also not sure if any engine problems could cause the rpms to jump without increasing the speed.

The only other things I noted during those runs are:
-It feels like I'm "lurching forward" when I bounce off the limiter, like the brakes are being squeezed. It's like I would go momentarily faster, but some monkey is squeezing on the brakes before I do(I did check for monkeys, and the only one around wasn't on the brakes).
-Sometimes when riding close to the divider, I would hear a slight metallic ringing sound, like someone took a nail and very lightly pressed it against the clutch bell as its running. It's a very quiet sound, and I usually have to be next to the divider at full throttle to hear it.

[Pcxdemon]

Have you installed sliders correctly?

[sendler2112]

Tried round rollers again? See if the clutch is blazing hot after a run where it has acted up. I doesn't seem like it could be the engine. Maybe something is partially stripped at the drive face or the clutch.

[Valiant]

Have you installed sliders correctly?

Again, I didn't personally install them(working on it, I'm still waiting for a 19mm and 22mm socket). But I did double-check with them and had 3 different sets installed, I'm sure it was put in correctly given that I asked to see the condition of the variator and sliders on two separate occasions.

Could the sliders move out of position while riding? That might reflect on the issue I have.

Tried round rollers again? See if the clutch is blazing hot after a run where it has acted up. I doesn't seem like it could be the engine. Maybe something is partially stripped at the drive face or the clutch.

Yes, but it was 10g. Since it was consistently worse with lighter weights while heavier weights made it move back and forth, I'll try leave some 14g weights for my mechanic tomorrow when I bring it over to have the larger throttle body put in(finally). I figure the extra engine power should make up for the heavier weights.

It's worth noting that on one occasion when I made a short(15 minute) run from my home to the shop on the city streets and he took out the variator an hour later, it was pretty damn hot to touch. I would've figured it would be cool by the time he took it out, but I literally had to put the thing down after holding it for about 10 seconds, and it was at least a full hour after I've stopped. It is certainly worth noting that it started acting up when I had the AdvancePro drive face put back in. Would be strange if that's the problem though, as it never showed any problems when I ran it with the NCY variator. Still, I believe he used the impact wrench to slam the nut back on, so I guess it's possible the threads might be stripped and that might cause some slippage.

[Pcxdemon]

Anything is possible...Installing sliders the wrong way is quite an easy mistake especially if one never dealt with them before...Also they are not individually marked to clearly indicate what g's they are so hopefully the shop didnt mix them all up and youre running a mixed bag of weights and vario out of balance. From my experience,if you have a bottom fairing removed and ride with out it while youre sorting your transmition will make things alot easier. With a pair of working gloves you can remove the hot vario and replace the weights immediately when you pull up to get it done. Remeber,daytona vario with one washer only,two will be too much or ncy outer pulley alone as it already has a spacer built in so no washers with that set up. IF you remember,i mentioned to you advance pro sells two outer pulleys,one lighter one ( for track racing up to 80ish kmh) and a normal weight one. Lighter one have WILL have an effect of loss of torque and will make it difficult to reach max top end no matter what you do to your engine..

[Valiant]

Anything is possible...Installing sliders the wrong way is quite an easy mistake especially if one never dealt with them before...Also they are not individually marked to clearly indicate what g's they are so hopefully the shop didnt mix them all up and youre running a mixed bag of weights and vario out of balance. From my experience,if you have a bottom fairing removed and ride with out it while youre sorting your transmition will make things alot easier. With a pair of working gloves you can remove the hot vario and replace the weights immediately when you pull up to get it done. Remeber,daytona vario with one washer only,two will be too much or ncy outer pulley alone as it already has a spacer built in so no washers with that set up. IF you remember,i mentioned to you advance pro sells two outer pulleys,one lighter one ( for track racing up to 80ish kmh) and a normal weight one. Lighter one have WILL have an effect of loss of torque and will make it difficult to reach max top end no matter what you do to your engine..

I currently removed both washers. If the drive face weight is the problem, wouldn't that problem have made itself known when I was running the NCY setup with that same drive face for the last thousand miles?

[Pcxdemon]

Anything is possible...Installing sliders the wrong way is quite an easy mistake especially if one never dealt with them before...Also they are not individually marked to clearly indicate what g's they are so hopefully the shop didnt mix them all up and youre running a mixed bag of weights and vario out of balance. From my experience,if you have a bottom fairing removed and ride with out it while youre sorting your transmition will make things alot easier. With a pair of working gloves you can remove the hot vario and replace the weights immediately when you pull up to get it done. Remeber,daytona vario with one washer only,two will be too much or ncy outer pulley alone as it already has a spacer built in so no washers with that set up. IF you remember,i mentioned to you advance pro sells two outer pulleys,one lighter one ( for track racing up to 80ish kmh) and a normal weight one. Lighter one have WILL have an effect of loss of torque and will make it difficult to reach max top end no matter what you do to your engine..

I currently removed both washers. If the drive face weight is the problem, wouldn't that problem have made itself known when I was running the NCY setup with that same drive face for the last thousand miles?

Not sure,im just throwing ideas out there...
Maybe best way is to go back to stock transmition and see if its doing it then as well. Id be inclined to think that sliders are in wrong way and as sendler said to put back the rollers in and try that first.

[Valiant]

Maybe. I gave my scooter shop the 14g rollers. Since there was improvement for only a slight while with the heavier weights, I did toy with the idea that maybe the center spring is causing the issue, though I'm not sure why the performance would fluctuate between rides literally minutes apart. Still, if the spring was the problem, the problem should have been resolved when I put the stock spring back in even with the 10g sliders.

[Valiant]

Hmm, could it be the clutch bearing? I'm not sure what part of the transmission that would be, as I'm currently running the NCY torque driver & rear pulley assembly, along with a Malossi delta clutch and clutch bell. I recall hearing Mel describe how his rpms were going up, but his speed wasn't. But again, I'm not sure if the clutch bearing is part of those aftermarket parts or if it's separate and distinct from them.

I wouldn't say the transmission sounds like a bunch of loose bolts are rattling around while riding, but there's definitely a metallic noise coming from there while I'm riding, and I can only hear it at low speeds if I'm riding without my helmet. Although not having done that in a while, I can't say for sure if that's not just how it normally sounds.

[fun2scoot]

If the same parts produce different results, then the first variable is temperature.
You said it was 'blazing hot'. Is it possible the belt is glazed? That kind of heat could damage the support bearing (91005-KVB-900) in the Left Crankcase cover. It should be inspected.

[GeeGusKahn]

Hmm, could it be the clutch bearing? I'm not sure what part of the transmission that would be, as I'm currently running the NCY torque driver & rear pulley assembly, along with a Malossi delta clutch and clutch bell. I recall hearing Mel describe how his rpms were going up, but his speed wasn't. But again, I'm not sure if the clutch bearing is part of those aftermarket parts or if it's separate and distinct from them.

I wouldn't say the transmission sounds like a bunch of loose bolts are rattling around while riding, but there's definitely a metallic noise coming from there while I'm riding, and I can only hear it at low speeds if I'm riding without my helmet. Although not having done that in a while, I can't say for sure if that's not just how it normally sounds.

Valiant, it is highly unlikely that it is your clutch bearing as you appear to have replaced the OEM driven pulley assembly.
.
If I understand correctly from reading your posts - you are not doing your own wrenching - but have someone else doing it for you.
If this is correct, do you trust that person to be doing a proper job. That includes installing the correct parts correctly - etc ??
.
If you trust that person to be doing a proper job then I would suggest that you reinstall all the OEM parts and start over.
Run with the Honda parts long enough to find out if the problem is with the scooter or is it stuff that you added.
If the scooter does not malfunction with the OEM parts than add each of your add on parts - one at a time.
Otherwise it will be pure luck that you find what your problem is.
.
Really, good luck with this.
.

[Valiant]

If I understand correctly from reading your posts - you are not doing your own wrenching - but have someone else doing it for you.
If this is correct, do you trust that person to be doing a proper job. That includes installing the correct parts correctly - etc ??

More than me or my Honda dealer yes.

If you trust that person to be doing a proper job then I would suggest that you reinstall all the OEM parts and start over.
Run with the Honda parts long enough to find out if the problem is with the scooter or is it stuff that you added.
If the scooter does not malfunction with the OEM parts than add each of your add on parts - one at a time.

If the issue continues even with the 14g rollers, I'd guess I would have to.

I just recently got the tools needed for it, though I am a little nervous about popping off that clutch without the pieces flying into my face(or someone else's car, as I don't have a private garage and would need to do this in an open parking lot).

[Pcxdemon]

I could do a quick vid and post on YouTube how to do it in 2 min no sweat...

[Valiant]

Didn't find one specifically for the PCX, but I suppose that one will do? From the looks of it, it would be easier to get a chair, set the clutch assembly on the ground, use both feet to hold the clutch down, uncrank it, and let it up slowly.

Seems like I might need a large socket for the clutch nut though. I've only got 8, 10, 19, and 22mm sockets.

[Pcxdemon]

I use vice grips to tap it loose, grip the nut tight and tap against sturdy bench or saw horse, then follow those steps of placing it under my feet..

[fish]

I use vice grips to tap it loose, grip the nut tight and tap against sturdy bench or saw horse, then follow those steps of placing it under my feet..

Yep, there's a yutube of a fellow with a big crescent wrench locked on the nut, turns it around, holding the clutch, taps wrench handle on the ground. Nut comes loose, then use feet, etc.
Fish

[Valiant]

Okay, so I popped the transmission open today after a bit of drama(and nerdrage).

Variator holding tool was useless because the AdvancePro drive face doesn't allow it to secure in place. Didn't have too much trouble smacking it off anyway with my impact driver, but I can't judge the level of torque on the nut when I put it back on. It did loosen up on one occasion when I had it on idle with the cover off. Hopefully that doesn't become a problem later on, as I suspect all the shops I took this PCX to did the exact same thing(use an impact driver).

I replaced the 13g sliders(which were indeed installed properly) with 14g rollers. I found no change whatsoever, and it was the same on the highway. Still stuck at about 65 mph. If nothing else, it seems to pull even harder.

I did have some clues though:
Black powder, a crap ton of it.


It was quite literally everywhere, and there's enough of it to suggest that something got shredded inside in a big way.

Second clue would be the OEM drive face I took out of it, and then a look at the Yuminashi Speed Control vario(also paired with the stock drive face in the past):



There are pits in the front pulley faces. Not 100% sure what to make of it. My working theory is that the combination of a shorter drive boss(part of that vario kit) and the KN Planning torque driver probably pushed the belt out against the transmission case. The back side didn't show any evidence of damage, as I could still see the Daytona logo clearly on it. However, it may have been possible for the back side to grind to a halt against the back of the case, but the front pulley is still rolling ahead against the front of the belt(where the rubber is), thus causing massive heat friction and very quick belt wear.

I'll have to pull the belt tomorrow to compare it with a new(or the stock) one to see if that holds any water, and just to see if swapping the belt helps. If I manage to pop the rear pulley assembly out without having the bell fly into my face, I'll also be sure to check to see if the pulley opens up fully.

There's no groove in the front pulley per se, but there's enough of a mark there to indicate that the belt isn't riding all the way up.

I should have the video uploaded by tomorrow showing the PCX running without the crankcase cover.

[Pcxdemon]

Okay, so I popped the transmission open today after a bit of drama(and nerdrage).

Variator holding tool was useless because the AdvancePro drive face doesn't allow it to secure in place. Didn't have too much trouble smacking it off anyway with my impact driver, but I can't judge the level of torque on the nut when I put it back on. It did loosen up on one occasion when I had it on idle with the cover off. Hopefully that doesn't become a problem later on, as I suspect all the shops I took this PCX to did the exact same thing(use an impact driver).

I replaced the 13g sliders(which were indeed installed properly) with 14g rollers. I found no change whatsoever, and it was the same on the highway. Still stuck at about 65 mph. If nothing else, it seems to pull even harder.

I did have some clues though:
Black powder, a crap ton of it.


It was quite literally everywhere, and there's enough of it to suggest that something got shredded inside in a big way.

Second clue would be the OEM drive face I took out of it, and then a look at the Yuminashi Speed Control vario(also paired with the stock drive face in the past):



There are pits in the front pulley faces. Not 100% sure what to make of it. My working theory is that the combination of a shorter drive boss(part of that vario kit) and the KN Planning torque driver probably pushed the belt out against the transmission case. The back side didn't show any evidence of damage, as I could still see the Daytona logo clearly on it. However, it may have been possible for the back side to grind to a halt against the back of the case, but the front pulley is still rolling ahead against the front of the belt(where the rubber is), thus causing massive heat friction and very quick belt wear.

I'll have to pull the belt tomorrow to compare it with a new(or the stock) one to see if that holds any water, and just to see if swapping the belt helps. If I manage to pop the rear pulley assembly out without having the bell fly into my face, I'll also be sure to check to see if the pulley opens up fully.

There's no groove in the front pulley per se, but there's enough of a mark there to indicate that the belt isn't riding all the way up.

I should have the video uploaded by tomorrow showing the PCX running without the crankcase cover.

It's you advance pro bearings that came out and did the damage. Your belt is most likely damaged ( ground too thin), obvious damage to pulley faces...
I'd say belt and pulleys absorbed the brunt of the damage, and would need replacing. The rest should be ok, but make sure you take the housing rings out from the rear torque driver as it is preloading your 11% rear spring and you don't need it in there now.

[Valiant]

Could be tricky, I only have a 19mm and 22mm socket. I believe a 3rd size is needed to remove the nut holding the clutch to the rear pulley.

[Valiant]

Here's the video btw:


Also kind of curious about how you'd go about compressing the center spring without a specialized tool. I figure I'd need both hands if I want to stick the rear pulley to the ground while pushing the clutch in, but would need another set of hands to place the clutch nut on and screw it in.