2013 PCX not as fast as before.

[Almighty100]

Recently I had a problem with the drive belt slipping... after warming up the bike it would start squeeling from the belt slipping. During this time (and before it warmed up and started to slip)I noticed that I couldn't reach max speed (which I had assumed was from the slipping belt even though I couldn't hear it and wasn't warmed up yet) I also noticed acceleration wasn't as it was before... I mean, I could pop a wheelie before easily. So I replaced the clutch shoes, clutch springs (three small ones, not the big one), outer clutch bell, and the drive belt. Now there is no squeeling/slipping but I have a lower top-end speed of 55. I can't reach more even if I ride low for less wind resistence. The take-off is also terrible... I couldn't pop a wheelie even if i were to try intensely. So my question is to see if there are any suggestions of this problem. The variator and stock rollers seem to be in good shape. Should I replace them anyways? Should I get some Dr. Pulley Sliders? Are Dr. Pulley sliders harmful to the motor? Do I need a Dr. pulley variator or will mine work with Dr. Pulley sliders? Could there be a different cause other than the variator? Any help is much appreciated.

[waspmike]

How many kms? Type of riding? how fast do you think it went before?

[Almighty100]

the bike has 16,000 miles. it went about 65 before, and the rpm limiter would kick in but that is not happening anymore.

[iceman]

Original parts or 3rd party - esp. the belt which many 3rd party ones are not good (too wide, long, poor quality).

[waspmike]

16,000 is not much. Seeing as you seem to be handy. With a thick permanent marker mark the variator this will tell you if the belt is travelling to the full extent of the pulley. Then ride the bike at maximum speed (not on the stand). For diagnosis it will not hurt if you ride with the cover off for a short distance.





In the red picture you can see the original unused portion about 1/8"

It may not have done this before then you will notice an unworn section at the outer edge but comparing that to the marks left will tell you if anything has changed. If the unused part is larger than before then the pulley halves are worn. If nothing has changed in the variator/transmission then we are looking at the engine.

Air filter OK/new?
Bung some fuel system cleaner into the tank, if you can find cat. cleaner as well bung some of that in after the fuel cleaner has run through or use the cat cleaner first!
Wasp built a nest in the exhaust (joking but has happened before)

After the easy stuff if has still not been resolved we maybe looking at sensor malfunction?

[Oyabun]

Good suggestions on diagnosing variator face wear from Waspmike.

First of all, what variator, and weights are you running currently? I certainly like my PCX, but it was never even close to pull wheelies on the stock variator and weights.

I would not rule out wear as you write it was slipping for a while - so belt width could be decreased. Testing with a brand new belt would be definitely on my list. As it has to be changed periodically anyway I'd just remove and store it for later if it does not cure the problem.

Nobody seems to have answered the DrPulley part of the question.
No, they are not harmful to the engine or the variator, and the proper size sliders can be used in the stock variator too. Some reported issues with the Yuminsahi vario, but they seems to work with the Malossi (different size than the stock variator though). So it would be important to understand your current setup.
Sliders are providing slightly more transmission gearing (both at top end and low gearing) therefore can recover some of the original agility of your bike - but they are not curing the problem you encountering now. I'd suggest to buy the right sized sliders (most users are happy with them in weight between 12-14grams on the stock vario) but only install them after you have cured the current issue.

[Mel46]

I believe that there was a thread on this forum in which belts were compared. There seem to be some knockoffs that do not fit like the Honda belt, and these cause problems that are not obvious at first. They were either too wide, or too loose, or they had other problems. Look at the number on your origi al belt and make sure the new one has the same number. Also, I think the original one has Honda stamped on it, while knockoffs don't. I buy mine from the dealer because of this issue. By the way, I run 13gm NCY rollers with my oem other parts and they work well, so I don't think putting sliders in will hurt, but don't do this until you figure out the problem you currently have.

[Almighty100]

I am surprised by the great feedback i am getting here on this forum... this is my first posted topic/question. I really appreciate it.
I am running the stock variator and stock rollers. Every part that I have replaced is OEM, including the belt. The take-off and top-end difference occured right after I first started noticing the slipping/squeeling... and is the same even after changing belt, and rebuilding the clutch. The only part(s) that were not replaced within the drive/driven face was the variator and rollers. I will do the marker test, first... but now that it was mentioned about a possible censor malfunction it does seem this may be the case, afterall it started happening after the slipping started (a day or two later, actually). I will purchase a new air filter, but I did clean the current one with an air gun. I'm also going to replace the spark plug. I will reply later with an update. Thanks again

[homie]

I can back up waspmike that you can run full out with the case off and exposed belt. I did the maker test like that before I noticed there was a bearing support on the inside of the cover Happy ending fortunately for me but it pays to draw out some of these long time members... 'PCX whisperer's'

[Oyabun]

I am surprised by the great feedback i am getting here on this forum... this is my first posted topic/question. I really appreciate it.
I am running the stock variator and stock rollers. Every part that I have replaced is OEM, including the belt. The take-off and top-end difference occured right after I first started noticing the slipping/squeeling... and is the same even after changing belt, and rebuilding the clutch. The only part(s) that were not replaced within the drive/driven face was the variator and rollers. I will do the marker test, first... but now that it was mentioned about a possible censor malfunction it does seem this may be the case, afterall it started happening after the slipping started (a day or two later, actually). I will purchase a new air filter, but I did clean the current one with an air gun. I'm also going to replace the spark plug. I will reply later with an update. Thanks again

I think we missed the "Welcome to the forum" part. :-) Enjoy the ride.

Sorry, I did not notice the point about that you have already changed the belt. Then drive face and vario problems are net in line as Mike has pointed out. If indeed that's the culprit, and you need a replacement you might want to consider an aftermarket vario.

The stock vario uses 20x15 rollers so if you want to order the Dr.Pulley sliders that's the size you'll have to look for. The DrPulley instructions saying that one has to select 10-15% lower weights than stock. I have 14grams, but would go down to 13 (these are setting pulling RPM around 7400RPM, while power peak is around 7700) if I'd buy them again. As they have a longer expected life than the roller weights it will not happen anytime soon. :-)
Read a bit more about slider weights on the forum, others might have different opinions.

[BPT7594]

Dr Pulley sliders makes the acceleration and transition a little smoother and offer higher gear for better take off and lower gear for better high speed than stock rollers, theoretically. In practice I tried 12.5g sliders, those of the SH 150 and it makes the engine a little noisier but take off and top speed did improve.
Or you can read and try different Vario sets.
Yuminashi with their Torque control or Sprint Master. Used to be on a bike with one of Yuminashi's varios, stock 125cc esp, and the take off + acceleration really makes me nervous..
Dr pulley vario to go with dr pulley sliders, I tried them once, not so sure about my feelings.
Slap a SH150 vario in there and use 16g or 14g rollers.
Go on webike and search for the PCX. There's a lot of options there, be sure to check and read reviews though.
For better take-off, and I'm talking from experience here, you can add a 1mm or 0.5mm washer in the pulley boss to go with 16g rollers on full stock vario and clutch etc.. My experience with stock clutch is terrible as it makes my pcx's head shake too much at low speed.
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[Almighty100]

good stuff from everybody...
what is confusing to me about the different variater, weights, sliders vs. rollers, etc is that it seems to me that the specs from honda are there for a reason. For example, if a different variator/roller/slider weights improve performance, then why doesn't honda do this by default? it would seem to be in their best interest to for better reviews etc. I love my pcx but I don't want to spend $200 for 2.5 hours of labor for what take me 15 minutes to do (that is opening it up to get to the drive/driven face). However it does look like I might need to have them diagnose this issue. I will replace the spark plug, air filter, variator, and rollers (or sliders if i decide to be courageous), and if the take-off and top end doesn't improve to my standards, then I will end up taking it to the dealer and spending a lot of money but i want my baby running well.

[homie]

good stuff from everybody...
what is confusing to me about the different variater, weights, sliders vs. rollers, etc is that it seems to me that the specs from honda are there for a reason. For example, if a different variator/roller/slider weights improve performance, then why doesn't honda do this by default? it would seem to be in their best interest to for better reviews etc.

Honda will race to deliver the fuel economy and meet the best world emissions regulation... we are left to undo the choke hold on our beloved scooters. Explore this website, find the secrets it's all too FUN! and stay off the crash survivors list please we are having a good run.

[Oyabun]

good stuff from everybody...
what is confusing to me about the different variater, weights, sliders vs. rollers, etc is that it seems to me that the specs from honda are there for a reason. For example, if a different variator/roller/slider weights improve performance, then why doesn't honda do this by default? it would seem to be in their best interest to for better reviews etc.

As an engineer and a manager of engineers i know that engineers would love to make the perfect product.
However at the point of sale their work is judged by margins and financial return and they also have to consider a lot of legal and environmental issues also. Emmission and passing by noise standards for example. Costs should be apparently minimal, so it is requred to use as many existing parts from the factory's common parts bin as they can. Considering all this the PCX is a well thought agile urban starving machine - which is not only delivering on standards but also sells really well even on very cost concise markets like south east Asia and loved globally also for it's great economy.

Now have you read anything about performance above? Apparently not. As it was not a main design parameter. That's why there's always room for change.
Many hardliners from this forum would say leave it as it is stock is best. And to be true most of the changes one can do without major modifications is shaving off a few seconds in acceleration usually not compromising any or negligible amounts on fuel economy.
I say anything can be modified for the owner's taste - specially if the parts in question should be changed anyway.

[JohnL]

Quote: As an engineer and a manager of engineers i know that engineers would love to make the perfect product.
However at the point of sale their work is judged by margins and financial return and they also have to consider a lot of legal and environmental issues also. Quote:

You'll never get a job at VW with those ethics

[Almighty100]

Today things seem better as far as the top-end goes. Maybe the new clutch needed to be broken in. I'm not sure but it is running pretty well. So now I'm going to be looking into getting a new variator and Dr. Pulley sliders in hopes of getting a few more top-end mph, as well as a faster take-off. I sincerely appreciate everybody's help in the matter and their advice. I am in California and I know that bikes that can be registered in other states cannot be registered here because of the damn hard-core emission rules here. "CARB certified" bikes are needed to be registered. California has the strictest laws for emissions. Regardless of all of this, would altering the variator cause a change in emissions?? If so, how so?

[BPT7594]

Today things seem better as far as the top-end goes. Maybe the new clutch needed to be broken in. I'm not sure but it is running pretty well. So now I'm going to be looking into getting a new variator and Dr. Pulley sliders in hopes of getting a few more top-end mph, as well as a faster take-off. I sincerely appreciate everybody's help in the matter and their advice. I am in California and I know that bikes that can be registered in other states cannot be registered here because of the damn hard-core emission rules here. "CARB certified" bikes are needed to be registered. California has the strictest laws for emissions. Regardless of all of this, would altering the variator cause a change in emissions?? If so, how so?

Altering the variator can increase emissions a little.
Altering the variator almost always makes the engine rev higher which means increasing noise level and as a rule of thumb, a high revving engine in a fixed amount of time would burn more fuel air mixture than a slow revving engine, all else equal.
I would keep the stock variator. I have seen many abused scooter with more than 30000km and no transmission maintenance. The things that usually fail first is the belt and rollers. Variators are much more durable.
If you want you can get a different variator. I'll recommend getting Yuminashi new torque control variator, you can find if on their website to go with their inertia power booster if you're into acceleration and top speed. I'm not their marketing chief but out of every aftermarket varios theirs are the only one I can say truly works on a stock 125 esp. Of course I'm speaking from experience.

Or you can add the washers like my picture above and buy 14 or 12g rollers.

Or buy a sh150 vario and use it with 14g rollers.

[BPT7594]

good stuff from everybody...
what is confusing to me about the different variater, weights, sliders vs. rollers, etc is that it seems to me that the specs from honda are there for a reason. For example, if a different variator/roller/slider weights improve performance, then why doesn't honda do this by default? it would seem to be in their best interest to for better reviews etc. I love my pcx but I don't want to spend $200 for 2.5 hours of labor for what take me 15 minutes to do (that is opening it up to get to the drive/driven face). However it does look like I might need to have them diagnose this issue. I will replace the spark plug, air filter, variator, and rollers (or sliders if i decide to be courageous), and if the take-off and top end doesn't improve to my standards, then I will end up taking it to the dealer and spending a lot of money but i want my baby running well.

Honda has to please everybody.. and makes a lot of money.
That's why they choose to make 125 PCXs in Vietnam. That's also why their esp engines are pretty much the same across the board, thank God that's also why every esp engines can be modified in pretty much the same way .
As for tuning, my take is to go small first, don't touch the cylinder, transmission first.
The power output is unchanged, but how the engine delivers it makes the ride more ẹnjoyable .
I'm always pro-tuning, since it's the only time I can get my hands dirty doing something fun, otherwise always facing numbers