running great - then engine just died -

[j.d.b.]

Wow, what crazy failure! Thanks for all the updates.

[waspmike]

I love a happy ending.

May the post mortem commence?

[iceman]

How many miles and when last serviced / who did it?

[Blubayou]

Good work GeeGuss,

Thanks for the updates & useful info on the startup procedure.

[GeeGusKahn]

How many miles and when last serviced / who did it?

Hay iceman
scoot has right at 3000 miles and about a year and a half old.
Last service was about a month ago, oil change, etc.
I did it, do all my own wrenching.
.
CVT - variator is not Honda OEM but clutch assemble is. Also using Dr P sliders.
.
Belt was original.
.
I plan to try and duplicate problem - not on road of course.
I want to see if I can get the sliders to fall out of the variator.
.
Sean

[iceman]

Wow, not many miles and not that old. I wonder if the variator swap-out was the cause of the issue, seeing how you say that was changed in some way.

[waspmike]

^^ Looks like an Advance pro drive face? What is behind it?

[GeeGusKahn]

Wow, not many miles and not that old. I wonder if the variator swap-out was the cause of the issue, seeing how you say that was changed in some way.

^^ Looks like an Advance pro drive face? What is behind it?

Hay iceman - variator could be problem BUT don't jump to any conclusions.
.
There are all kinds of possibilities.
Boss length, shims added or subtracted, driven face, variator, phase of the moon or just weird stuff happening.
.
waspike, good observation - yes, an advance pro.
Also using a Dr P variator and sliders and boss and shims on the day in question.
.
I am going to set up the exact duplicate of how it was assembled on that day in my laboratory.
.
The first question that needs an answer is 'can the sliders fall out of variator with that setup' ????
.
I will post results as they become available along with photos and any conclusions that I might come to.
.
Sean

[waspmike]

Sean,

Have spoken to another... maybe when the two pulley halves touch there maybe enough room for a weight to wiggle out. Under normal circumstances as can be seen by the wear on the pulley the halves never got that close but when the belt broke and the belt was free of the tension it went higher than usual allowing the pulley halves to move further etc..

As you say it maybe the simple addition of a washer to fine tune. But that kind-of defeats the purpose of aftermarket where you want the belt at the further extent of the pulley.

Stock width belt I assume?

[iceman]

Wow, not many miles and not that old. I wonder if the variator swap-out was the cause of the issue, seeing how you say that was changed in some way.

^^ Looks like an Advance pro drive face? What is behind it?

Hay iceman - variator could be problem BUT don't jump to any conclusions.

- not blaming the variator as such, but suspect any work done in that area because it's almost unheard of for a belt to brake like that on a bike that has only 3000 miles on it.

[waspmike]

If you look at the pictures of the belt there is a crack in it right where the green mark on the clutch pulley would touch the belt if the clutch was rotated. Of course this could have been caused by the disaster but...
So yes although the scooter only has 3000 miles on it and the belt is probably good for, say, 15,000. there is a crack in it now.

GGK will figure it out!

[Mel46]

Well, that is scary. I plan on putting an ncy variator on my wife's pcx but had not planned on getting a reinforced belt. I wonder now if I should.

Tiger, Georgia is 17 miles from the border to...I believe...South Carolina. (I haven't looked at the map and I know that we often ride up to Tennessee, across to North Carolina border, down to South Carolina border, and back to Georgia. All of this in the same day. It is fun but exhausting.

[GeeGusKahn]

Well, that is scary. I plan on putting an ncy variator on my wife's pcx but had not planned on getting a reinforced belt. I wonder now if I should.

Hay Mel
with as many people that have NCY variators I think we would have heard if there was a similar problem.
I have not seen one close up so I can't really speculate.
I do remember someone saying they had a belt brake in short order when they put sliders in I believe an NCY variator.
But you have to remember there are all the other variables like boss length, shims, drive plate, phase of the moon, etc.
.
Looking at the OEM Honda variator, there is no way the weights are going to come out of it regardless if rollers or sliders.
.
The Dr.Pulley variator, which is what I have, has some large cut outs in the ramp plate and the back of the movable drive face.
I beleive that rollers or sliders could actually come out given the right set of circumstances.

Sean

[waspmike]

From what I can deduce Dr. Pulley ramp plate is spider-like and is not a complete "plate"





Some other variators have a U shaped cut out to clear a reinforcing? piece cast into the pulley but Dr. Pulley doesn't seem to have this so there is nothing to fill the gap.



Mel Others use NCY so I think your NCY will be fine in this regard? Dry fit first!

Next question? Why did the belt break?

[GeeGusKahn]

From what I can deduce Dr. Pulley ramp plate is spider-like and is not a complete "plate"

The plate on mine is similar to the photo.
The ramp plate has some large cutouts as well as a fairly large spacing between slope of plate and back edge of movable plate.
.
Soon I will be posting another photo with the way it was set up on that day.
.
I'm really starting to think the added 1 mm worth of shims may have started the problem.
.
I have been running without those shims for several months with no problem and just recently added the shims.
.
more to come
Sean

[Pcxdemon]

OK, so now we get to the heart of the matter.
.
After reading input from my fellow PCXers, my brain started working again.
Always follow the KISS rule till it doesn’t work any more.
Dummie, you didn’t check the CVT yet.
This is really foolish on my part since it doesn’t take 5 minutes to split the case.
I pull cover and what do I see ???
.

PCX CVT 1 cover pulled 324k.jpg

Well there’s your problem!
.

PCX CVT 2 belt broken 324k .jpg

The belt is broken, jammed and some of the sliders came out of variator.
.

PCX CVT 3 belt broken jambed veriator 324k.jpg

Not sure how well you can see it but if you look at upper left of this photo
you can see that belt is slightly twisted and wedged between veriator and cvt case.
.
NO WONDER MOTOR WOULD NOT TURN.
.
Also look at lower center behind twist in belt, you will see a slider laying there.
.
and finally the belt itself.
.

PCX CVT 4 belt broken 324k.jpg

So – now we know why motor would not turn over.
.
BUT - we don’t know why everything fell apart.
.
It’s the old who came first question – the chicken or the egg ?????
.
Veriator nut still in place and properly tight and no damage to any components.

After I get all the tupperwear back on and have a chance, I will play around with the variator and see if I can duplicate the sliders coming out.
.
Some time in the next week or so I will start a new thread to talk about my CVT set up and thoughts on this incident with sliders coming out.
.
For this post I am happy to say as soon as I cleared the jamb the engine started right up.
.
Sean

[/b]

Sliders came out after the belt snapped and allowed the vario to jerk forward slackening the rear ramp plate that holds the weights thus enabling the weights to fall out.

[maddiedog]

Check for rub marks on the inside of the drive casing. I'm curious if it was just a bad belt or if the sliders caused it to extend so far out in the front that it rubbed itself until it heated up enough to catastrophically fail.

[GeeGusKahn]

Check for rub marks on the inside of the drive casing. I'm curious if it was just a bad belt or if the sliders caused it to extend so far out in the front that it rubbed itself until it heated up enough to catastrophically fail.

Hay Maddiedog
a couple of photos might help.
.

01 torn-busted belt 1 324k.jpg (100.92 KiB) Viewed 1656 times

and

01 torn-busted belt 2 324k .jpg (132.54 KiB) Viewed 1656 times

and

02 torn-busted belt 324k.jpg (141.89 KiB) Viewed 1656 times

You can clearly see where belt was on top of pulley from grove cut in it.
.
Also, this is shot looking at ramp plate and movable plate on Dr.Pulley variator.
You can see the opening.

04 Dr P variator ramp plate 324k.jpg (112.96 KiB) Viewed 1656 times

I was able to manually wiggle some sliders out.
There were no obvious rub marks on inside top of casing where the grooved section of belt was pulled from.
Sean

[waspmike]

I can still see a crack in the belt.

[fish]

OK, so now we get to the heart of the matter.
.
After reading input from my fellow PCXers, my brain started working again.
Always follow the KISS rule till it doesn’t work any more.
Dummie, you didn’t check the CVT yet.
This is really foolish on my part since it doesn’t take 5 minutes to split the case ok.
I pull cover and what do I see ???
.

PCX CVT 1 cover pulled 324k.jpg

Well there’s your problem!
.

PCX CVT 2 belt broken 324k .jpg

The belt is broken, jammed and some of the sliders came out of variator.
.

PCX CVT 3 belt broken jambed veriator 324k.jpg

Not sure how well you can see it but if you look at upper left of this photo
you can see that belt is slightly twisted and wedged between veriator and cvt case.
.
NO WONDER MOTOR WOULD NOT TURN.
.
Also look at lower center behind twist in belt, you will see a slider laying there.
.
and finally the belt itself.
.

PCX CVT 4 belt broken 324k.jpg

So – now we know why motor would not turn over.
.
BUT - we don’t know why everything fell apart.
.
It’s the old who came first question – the chicken or the egg ?????
.
Veriator nut still in place and properly tight and no damage to any components.

After I get all the tupperwear back on and have a chance, I will play around with the variator and see if I can duplicate the sliders coming out.
.
Some time in the next week or so I will start a new thread to talk about my CVT set up and thoughts on this incident with sliders coming out.
.
For this post I am happy to say as soon as I cleared the jamb the engine started right up.
.
Sean

[/b]

Man! That was the best read since The Hunt For Red October!
Thanks!! :-)
Fish