honda forza 300 - help from Italy!

[robertinino]

sorry Ed I?m always forget to asc you why in the combination 3x3, dr Pulley have to be haviest than rollers, and not the other way instead
ciao

[BRed]

sorry Ed I?m always forget to asc you why in the combination 3x3, dr Pulley have to be haviest than rollers, and not the other way instead
ciao

Robert, it was mostly trial and error

heavy rollers and light sliders look like this.....








heavy sliders and light rollers look like this.....









originally I was tuning to match the acceleration curve of the JCosta using a conventional variator and weights
it soon became apparent it was more practical to tune for the upshift to occur just as the bike reaches peak torque rpm.....
the flat curve lets it stay in peak torque for several seconds....it makes a difference!


we suspect the sawtooth curves with heavy rollers is caused by the sliders reorienting themselves in the tracks....
the results are random meandering curves that are not consistent or repeatable

with heavier sliders controlling the shift, that doesn't happen

[BRed]

I would love to have a set of those Nuovi Rulli weights.....
the one pictured would be perfect to test since they're Helix rollers (24x18).
that means they're tall enough not to drop your starting gear, since they should be about 1mm taller than the 23x18 version

I love the cam design....it looks like it would work!

I cannot find 24x18 sliders either by DR Pulley or Nuovi Rulli in the US....
it's possible they could eliminate the need to mix in 3 rollers, but I can't say that until I've had a chance to test them.

[robertinino]

hi Ed,
I'll contact by email the company that distributed dr Pulley to ask information about the new sliders. I hope to have good news for you.
here another pic taken at Eicma Milan (motorshow)
Robert

[robertinino]

Ed a friend of mine on italian forum put me this question. He wont to change the original rollers of forza 300 with: 6 sliders dr pulley 23x18 17 grammi on OEM vario.
I suggest as you said to me, to change only 3 original rollers with 3 15 gr rollers. Which one is the best solution for him'
Thank you
R

NB. Nuovi Rulli means New Sliders from dt pulley

[BRed]

Robert, he won't be pleased with 6 17G sliders....
he will lose a lot of his topend speed, his fuel mileage will drop and he'll always be over-revving at cruise speeds.
He'll go from 0-60 in about 10 seconds or less and there won't be much more left after that.

If he wants 6 identical weights of the slider type, tell him to try 6 19G sliders.
In fact he would see faster than stock 0-60 times if he just swapped the 6- 21G rollers for 6- 21G sliders....
6 sliders will always accelerate faster than 6 rollers of the same weight.

If he is interested in trying mixed weights, then tell him to try what you suggested as a test.....
replace 3 21G rollers with 3 15G rollers.

Perhaps you and he could split a set of 6-20G DR Pulley sliders and 6-15G Adige Carbon rollers??

[robertinino]

he said thank you, tomorrow we'll order all the material.

Ed, does your honda forza have the outside temperature thermometer on instrumentation of the cockpit?
I know american version are different from european. For example I don't have the handbrake.

[BRed]

No, just the fuel consumption gauge, odometer w/tripmeters and a clock....
I think the only difference is the parking brake. And maybe the reflectors??

I think the parking brake was required by US law since the scoot is never "in gear" when its not running, weighs more than the minimum (either 300 or 350lbs?) and is equipped with a "side stand". Center stand only does not require a parking brake, from what I've heard.

We also have an old law here that predates the requirement for daytime headlight use requiring side mounted amber reflectors in front and red reflectors in the rear on all new motorcycles...as far as I know, no state inspection requires them. None of the states I've lived in required them.

[robertinino]

hi Ed,
is incredible in Italy is impossible to find rollers 23x18 - 15 gr!! I phoned to the factory in Milan they said to me that they don't do rollers anymore because of the little demand: Do you know an alternative good Brand, more easy to find?
ciao
R

[robertinino]

I mean Adige rollers

[BRed]

try here, Robert...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... C2&_sop=15

if you can't get Adige don't despair....any good 15G roller will work.

The Adige Carbon jackets are extra hard and when combined with sliders that are bearing most of the load, they should last ~50000 miles before you need to inspect or replace them....they'll outlast several belts!

that's the best reason for using them, but they're also very slick and that makes them very responsive to throttle changes...
that lets them sort of act like a +10% contra spring when reducing throttle...easier downshifts.


also I found some 24x18 sliders in Germany and ordered a set of 20G 2418.....
apparently the Burgman 250 uses Helix rollers!

[robertinino]

thank you Ed,
today I found also this carbon rollers in Germany 23x18 - in 15 gr and 20 gr

carbon 15 gr.jpg (189.04 KiB) Viewed 4023 times

what do you think about the quality. Are they similar to the Adige rollers?

In the mean time I'm waiting for the dr Pulley sliders, I start with this simple combination, you suggested to me last time : 3 original rollers and 3 carbon 15 gr.
After all it has left a doubt: if Carbon rollers have the good quality you spoke about....................
"........The Adige Carbon jackets are extra hard and when combined with sliders that are bearing most of the load, they should last ~50000 miles before you need to inspect or replace them....they'll outlast several belts! that's the best reason for using them, but they're also very slick and that makes them very responsive to throttle changes...that lets them sort of act like a +10% contra spring when reducing throttle...easier downshifts......."
why isn't necessary to change also the 3 original 21 grams with carbon rollers 21g same brand ?

About the special sliders dr Pulley I told you last time I didn't received a replay.

[attachment=0]new dt pulley sliders - Eicma Milan.jpg[/attachment

this is the adress I wrote for information directly to Dr Pulley: unionltd@ms14.hinet.net


In my Italian honda forza forum a person with whom we discuss posted a video of what he changed on his Forza 300. On OEM vario changed: Dr.Pulley Sliding roll SR2318/6-17grams (http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... ucts_id=36) and Dr.Pulley 3 sliding pieces SP2418-K (http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... cts_id=601)
with very interesting result:

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdF_Huyrcmg

He runs 150 km / rpm 8700 with Dr Pulley configuration 17 grams, with very good acceleration (0-100 km less 10 seconds), and best max speed ( 150 km about 95 miles).
What do you think of this Dr Pulley 17 gr configuration,? Last time you don't raccomended, but seem to be good.
last question: Is it important to change also the 3 sliding pieces on OEM vario? You never speak about this change.

grazie (thank you)
ciao
Robert

[BRed]

Robert, I'm not sure I understood....
are you saying he's using 3 each 17G 23x18 sliders + 3 each 17G 24x18 sliders?
if so, I have not yet tested 24x18 sliders...they aren't available here and I didn't know they existed until Termix and Vulcandanny were posting here about finding sliders in Honda Helix sizes (24x18)

23x18 sliders are .5mm shorter than most rollers, but 24x18 sliders MIGHT be tall enough to eliminate the need for 3 rollers....
I don't know that since I've never tested them.


the results were excellent and looked to be much faster than 6 17G 23x18 sliders....
on the video at about 1/2 minute you can watch as the rpm waver between 8000 and 9000 revs, with speed slowly but steadily creeping up.


on DR Pulley sliders durability, the angled flat faces have 10-20 times the contact area and thus, bearing surface, of a cylinder (roller) so they never wear out, even with conventional jacketing.

There are several sources of carbon rollers, including Kitaco...
they should work equally well

[BRed]

Robert, never mind...
this is the potential confusion with the term sliders I mentioned earlier.





I just saw the 2418 you mentioned is not 24x18 weights, but DR Pulley variator sliders....the 3 sliding bearings.





I would only use the original 3 OEM Honda sliders, since every time I've used the DR Pulley sliders, they cracked and jammed up the variator, causing it to hang in one gear while shifting....this usually happened after several hours of highway riding.

The DR Pulley sliding weights are excellent but unfortunately, their sliding bearings suck!

[robertinino]

Ed,
I spoke with the boy on italian fourm an he confirmed to me that the new configuration on OEM variator is: 6 dr Pulley sliders , 23x18 17 gr.
The result of this configuration, on the video seems to be very good, as opposed of what you told to me last time:............"Robert, he won't be pleased with 6 17G dr pulley sliders.... he will lose a lot of his topend speed, his fuel mileage will drop and he'll always be over-revving at cruise speeds. He'll go from 0-60 in about 10 seconds or less and there won't be much more left after that..................If he wants 6 identical weights of the slider type, tell him to try 6 19G sliders....
............................but the result of this configuration in my eyes seems to be very close to what I would expect from my Forza 300. How could it happen?
All the configurations you propose to me are even better?
3 original rollers 21g + 3carbon rollers 15 g
6 dr pulley sliders 19 g
3 dr pulley sliders 20 g + 3 carbon rollers 15 g
I'm a little confused because I want the best and the most technically reliable.
How are the result in terms of performance of every configuration here described, respect dr pulley 17 gr configuration we have seen on video?.
Thank you very much for explained to me the difference between the 3 sleading bearings. Is interesting to note that even in this case OEM sleading are better

ciao
Robert

[robertinino]

Dr.Pulley sliding rolls in the 24x18mm format, weight 14 grams, 6 pieces / package are availabke in every grams. for suzuky burgman 250 and honda cn-ch 250:
here you can purchase: http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... cts_id=614
Do you think this configuration will eliminate the problem to mix 3 dr pulley and 3 rollers? using only 6 dr pulley sliding (3 23x18 + 3 24x18 ) always 3x20 gr and 3x15 gr? or all same grams?
When you start to taste?
Do you think will be the best configuration ever?

[BRed]

Robert, what I'm doing with mixed weights is definitely out on the fringe of CVT tuning and not for everyone....
remember that my primary evaluation of each combo is based on the shape of an acceleration curve.

I sometimes forget not everyone wants to retune their variator indefinitely, in search of perfection.
Unfortunately, perfection is something to reach for, not something that can ever be attained.
I'm trying to get maximum acceleration while retaining maximum topend, all the while using lowest rpm and the minimum of fuel...
and I want this all on a variator that will last forever!

it's so much easier if all you want is just to go faster!

Since your friend has a known working setup that you've seen and like, you should go with his advice.
With his setup, you're seeing the actual speedometer/tach, instead of a line on a graph.
He's also closer to you and can help support you in the upgrade and if something goes wrong later.

who knows....perhaps you'll get hooked on CVT tuning and eventually want something more?
then you can try a slider/roller combo?

ed

[robertinino]

excuse me Ed, but you remain for me a person always kind and a genius in this area.
I really appreciate yours experimentation, and I'm sure the more important discovery remain the mix: sliders, rollers on different weight, also if not everyone agree.....
Why don't you try the mix dr pulley 23x18 and 24x18? THE 24X18 Size should be replace the rollers if i well understood...... but I don't know if on different or same grams (15/16)? If you need 24x18 dr Pulley I can send you.
ciao
Robert

[BRed]

I found the 24x18 sliders while looking for the Adige 15G you asked about....
I have some coming and will test when they arrive.

I don't have a means of making a video like you posted, but I'll see what I can do....
I guess I would need a RAM mount for my cell phone?

Next week on Wednesday June 11, I'm riding to a Ruckus rally (actually we call them CoN....the Conference of Noise!) in Greenville, NC.
Usually about 20 50cc Ruckus and 6 or 8 Big Ruckus scooters (and anyone else who cares to ride) get together each year near the full moon of June and ride for 3 days, always in a different city.
We done this for the past 9 years.

I won't be online during that time, but I'll try to post some pics when I get back and I'll check to see how you're coming with your upgrades.

On looking again at your friend's video carefully, what I noticed most is the tach reading (way more important than the speedometer to my eye).
Remember I told you earlier that for any given weight combination, 6 identical sliders should always give the fastest 0-60 time...
that was a good run for lightweight sliders.

for a stock Forza with 6 - 17G sliders, this is what I saw....

0-60 --- 11-12 seconds @7000
0-70 --- 17-18 seconds @7900
0-80 --- 24-25 seconds @8400

basically his 60->80 time was equal to his 0->60 time or ~12 seconds to gain that last 20mph...
I'm pretty sure that's where 3 20G sliders and 3 15G rollers will outshine him.

You should see lower rpm at each comparison point I referenced and slightly faster 0-80 time...
that's my prediction anyway!

When evaluating a CVT mod without the convenience of a graphing computer (or a cell phone camera?) the best idea is to pick several fixed points of reference on the speedometer to tachometer......
while cruising steady at 55mph, how many rpm is the tach displaying?

do this for several points....
your local speed limit, your cruise speed, your maximum speed, etc....with each combination you try.

This point to point rpm comparison helps you find the lowest practical rpm to do what you need....
reducing rpm at speed saves fuel, saves unneeded wear and tear on your engine, keeps you closer to a point where the engine is making good power and is just more pleasant to ride than a 9000 cycle per minute vibrator!

[robertinino]

basically his 60->80 time was equal to his 0->60 time or ~12 seconds to gain that last 20mph...I'm pretty sure that's where 3 20G sliders and 3 15G rollers will outshine him..........
Are you saying that is better time from 60 to 80 miles or also from 0 to 60 miles?
What you want to test with 24x18 sliders is a mix with 23x18?

The ruckus rally sound like a magic racing. Good luck!

R