Do you hit the corners hard? Go around turns fast?

[pattomike]

somewhere on this PCX forum I was introduced to the idea of counter steering on corners. It was a totally alien concept to me. I never heard of it. I don't know if I am doing this counter steering technique around corners instinctively and automatically. I don't think I am. I was riding today and going fast around corners because that's how I roll and I was trying to sorta pay attention to my mechanics and the only thing I noticed was that on right hand turns, for example, I lean to the right, and applied DOWNWARD pressure on the right handlebar.

I wrote an article on counter-steering for my motorcycle tips and tricks to stay alive Facebook blog - you might find it interesting (or you might not!)

https://www.facebook.com/MotorcycleTips ... 6707480860

Main blog at ...

https://www.facebook.com/MotorcycleTips ... oStayAlive

With regards to throwing the bike into corners etc -- I'd like to say a few words in all seriousness; I know what you mean. I've done it myself. I still do it myself. I have to resist the temptation to do it more often. That's the "full disclosure bit". Having said that, I also need to say that it can turn from "fun" to "skin grafts" and "surgery to put plates and screws into broken bones" in the blink of an eye. There are just so many ways to get hurt on a motorbike ... and the only chance we have is to be on our "A game" each and every time we ride - especially with regards to things like following distance, visibility, anticipation of failure to give way, and cornering safety margin.

Counter-steering changes the bike lean angle much faster than a change of rider position/weight ... but it usually doesn't change the trajectory much because our bodies move in the opposite direction to maintain equilibrium. Or to put that another way, if you're in a turn and you're not going to make it then the only thing that's going to tighten your radius is rolling off the throttle and (if necessary) applying some brake. Counter-steering is very useful for abruptly changing the direction of a heavy bike in a hurry - like if a brick suddenly appears between the rear tyres of the car in front that you really shouldn't have been that close to. Braking in a corner (trail braking) is a hotly debated topic in riding circles - many say "don't do it" and "do your braking before the corner" - the reality is that you CAN brake in a corner but it loads up the tyre more, and takes you closer to losing grip where VERY bad things happen if it's the front type of a motorbike. So to put that another way - the harder you're cornering, the less you're able to brake without coming off. And nobody ever regretted having too much of a safety margin. The other thing to keep in mind is that a flat tyre in a high-speed / loaded-up turn can make for a very bad experience. How often does that happen? Well I've have 4 flat tyres in 2 years - 3 let go without warning (one at night - approaching a roundabout - in the rain - with a pillion on the back - and I'll tell you now it's one of the worst feelings you can imagine. Would hate to have that happen in a high-speed corner).

Hope this helps

Thank you for your informative post. I keep wanting to read it closely, but by the time I get home from work it is past 10pm, and i feel rushed to get ready for bed. But I will read it. From my quick read I found it chock full of good information.

[Smaug]

I had one experience I'd like to share. I was riding with my wife, two up, with a group of sport-touring buddies. We were leaned over in a turn on the Concours. We were mid-turn, and I realized we were going too fast. Since I was with my wife, I decided to try to slow down, rather than lean off the bike more. I applied a bit of brakes gently, and could feel the front tire starting to let go; it was overloaded. I quickly knew that wasn't going to work. Let go of the brakes, maintained throttle and leaned off of the bike more to tighten the line. Anything else would have caused a crash.

A true OOOOhhhhhssssshhhhhhhh.................... moment!

All that thinking going on in split seconds. . .glad you were OK.

I was glad I had read that book. Now that I think of it, I didn't just maintain throttle; I gave it just a smidge MORE, to transfer some weight to the rear tire, which has a bigger contact patch.

I guess trail braking (the touch of rear brake) would be doing the same thing that applying more throttle did. Only thing is that it would have to be just a TOUCH of rear, or it would let loose.

Here's what my Concours looked like:


I really liked the styling, seat and saddlebags on that bike. The engine sounded great, but just didn't make any power until 5k RPM or so.

[grndslm]

I tried leaning as much as possible one day, and I believe I experienced the back wheel hopping off the ground a few times. Needless to say, I straightened right up and don't really care for the thrill of almost sliding layers of skin off my body.

Another day I was turning VERY SLOWLY in an intersection, where I hit a patch of sand or gravel. The wheels definitely slipped out from under me... But luckily I was going so slow that I was able to just pick (err.. kick) myself back up and keep on truckin'.

The Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends teaching your passenger in the back to lean with you in the turns, but I saw a recommendation here to just keep your weight directly above the tires and avoid leaning your body unless absolutely necessary. I've been doing that (leaning bike, but keeping body weight above rear wheel) and think it's going to save me from an accident, and perhaps it already has...

Pretty sure the whole concept of leaning into turns is taken out of proportion. Perhaps great for people turning at 65+ mph (and with bigger tires), but not anything over 10-15 mph as was initially recommended to me a few years ago.

I'm definitely curious how something with larger tires (like a Honda Supra GTR 150) handles in the curves compared to a PCX 150, however.

[Smaug]

The Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends teaching your passenger in the back to lean with you in the turns, but I saw a recommendation here to just keep your weight directly above the tires and avoid leaning your body unless absolutely necessary. I've been doing that (leaning bike, but keeping body weight above rear wheel) and think it's going to save me from an accident, and perhaps it already has...

If you're going to ride, you need to learn how to lean. Keeping your body above the wheels is terrible advice. What will happen is that you will run out of ground clearance much more quickly than if you lean down.

Taken to an extreme, if you need to make a turn, and you hang your body off the bike (on the low side of it) the bike will barely need to lean at all.

To achieve the same turn while leaning the bike and keeping your body above the wheels, the bike will have to lean much further.

You can REALLY feel this when you're riding with a nervous passenger, who tries to stay upright when you're trying to lean. You'll have to lean yourself and the bike even more to overcome the nervous nelly. When the passenger gets comfortable, she'll sometimes ENJOY the leaning, and anticipate the turns, so that it is actually EASIER to turn than riding alone!

Best advice for passengers is to tell them to look over your low shoulder in the turns. They will do the right thing without even realizing it.

Most of us do something between those two extremes. Lean neutral with the bike, or slightly more than the bike.

[PCX150Rider]

OOOhhhh MMMaannnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!

I came very close to buying an '86 Concours when they first hit the showroom floors. In retrospect I still wish I did. That being said I ended up getting the Ninja 750R instead. Put about 10,000 miles on it in one year and sold it (traded it in for a Ford Festiva) before I killed myself. Went to a lot of places around New England on it and one of the early Americade East Events.

[TheMaverick]

The Motorcycle Safety Foundation recommends teaching your passenger in the back to lean with you in the turns, but I saw a recommendation here to just keep your weight directly above the tires and avoid leaning your body unless absolutely necessary. I've been doing that (leaning bike, but keeping body weight above rear wheel) and think it's going to save me from an accident, and perhaps it already has...

If you're going to ride, you need to learn how to lean. Keeping your body above the wheels is terrible advice. What will happen is that you will run out of ground clearance much more quickly than if you lean down.

I do about 5000km a year with my adult daughter on the back - on the PCX - so I'd like to throw in my 10c worth.

What I've found is - in terms of lean - what steers the bike is the addition of the lean from both; put another way, if she leans enough for both of us, I literally don't have to do a thing (which is how it is most of the time) (it's like having an autopilot on the PCX!). Having just said that, when it's wet, I like to go a little slower and have the bike on less of an angle - on those days I'll just ask her not to lean and I'll do it all. If she does lean too much then I either lean a bit the other way or (and more often) just balance the turn using appropriate counter-steering.

The more we lean, the less the bike has to - but - having said that, if you're remaining in the same plane as the wheels and running out of ground clearance on a PCX then you're probably getting a bit too aggressive on cornering (by "you" I mean "anyone" - I'm not referring to anyone in particular). On sport bikes on the track hanging off the side of the bike is mandatory to be competitive - but on a PCX it's not needed quite as much

[TheMaverick]

Thank you for your informative post. I keep wanting to read it closely, but by the time I get home from work it is past 10pm, and i feel rushed to get ready for bed. But I will read it. From my quick read I found it chock full of good information.

You're very welcome.

The blog is proving to be somewhat of an enigma to be honest; I created it in the hope that one of my daughters friends could be directed to it, and it's risen to the dizzy heights of 54 followers (none of whom include the teenagers in question ...) with no real effort.

We have a bit of an anomaly with bike licences over here in New Zealand; on one hand the stats tell us that we're 23 times more likely to be killed or injured on our motorbikes compared to a car - then they allow anyone (typically teenagers with limited ability to make good decisions a lot of the time) to ride a motorbike up to 50cc on the roads so long as they have their car learners licence (which involves answering about 25 out of 30 multi-choice questions). Crazy.

So you see the learners out there amongst traffic doing all kinds of things that they don't know are dangerous -- and no intention of doing a motorcycle course (or taking on any kind of education) to improve their odds. Said friend of daughters had her first accident a few weeks ago - from what I gather she was adjusting her mirrors whilst riding and whilst she was doing that a car pulled out from a park without looking. Few abrasions and strained ligaments. I passed on an offer through my daughter to teach her a few "tips and tricks to stay alive" but the response was "You don't need to worry about me as I've learned from my mistake and won't do it again".

*sigh*

So more than happy to talk about these kinds of things in forums like this; I have zero experience with big bikes, but my previous lives as pilot and aircraft tech have taught me a lot about balance and gyroscopes, and safety -- and I do about 14,000km per year on the PCX so I feel like I've at least got something to contribute to these types of discussion.

On the topic of motorcycle safety in general, one bloomin good channel on YouTube is Kevin Morris' MC Rider - https://www.youtube.com/user/kevinmorris22 - it's good stuff.

[TheMaverick]

Great posts, Maverick. I like that Mick Doohan one, and you're spot on with the leaning.

Many thanks - I appreciate the kind words.

The one thing I would add is that if you're leaned over when you realize you're going too fast to make the turn, chances are that braking is going to immediately cause a crash. We're using up all our grip and lean angle, the contact patch is at its limit. Ask it to do more and you'll go down for sure.

I had one experience I'd like to share. I was riding with my wife, two up, with a group of sport-touring buddies. We were leaned over in a turn on the Concours. We were mid-turn, and I realized we were going too fast. Since I was with my wife, I decided to try to slow down, rather than lean off the bike more. I applied a bit of brakes gently, and could feel the front tire starting to let go; it was overloaded. I quickly knew that wasn't going to work. Let go of the brakes, maintained throttle and leaned off of the bike more to tighten the line. Anything else would have caused a crash.

One book I read that really helped me to understand how that works is "A Twist of the Wrist II". It's all about how cornering and braking works on a motorcycle.

To be honest, I don't have enough (or any really) experience on other/bigger bikes, so I'm really not in a position to comment on many of the techniques I've read for getting out of situations that you describe. I've clocked up quite a few km on the PCX though (31,000 in the past 2 years) - and a fair bit of that "throwing the bike around corners" (playing "Marc Marquez" for a day). On the PCX - assuming that the road surface is OK - I'm pretty sure I'd run out of balls long before the tyres run out of grip. At times I've gone into a corner a bit too quick and the ONLY way I've found that I can tighten the radius is by (1) rolling of the throttle or (if that's not enough) (2) applying some light braking. In theory it's possible to increase the lean angle and tighten the radius that way, but for me it just doesn't work ... as I change the lean angle my body automatically shifts the other way so that the balance (and thus, unfortunately, the radius) is maintained. In all honesty, I really don't know why my theory and my practice are different with regards to this - ie I don't know if the reason it doesn't work for me is due to physics or just down to something in my brain compensating for what feels like a change in balance. All I know if I'm heading for a guard rail I'm going to wipeout if I don't get off the throttle. I have another theory that the effectiveness of countersteering on radius possibly has a bit to do with the ratio of bike to rider weight - ie it's more likely to be effective in the case of a heavy bike and light rider.

On the PCX I have a particular corner that I was working at to see how fast I could take it - I nailed 50km/hr - then found by leaning off the bike I could make it at 60 km/hr - so I tried leaning off even more (hanging my bum off the side of the seat) and trying for 70 km/hr, but (a) I could feel the front tyre starting to complain a bit and (b) once when doing that my foot slipped and I suddenly realised that a PCX doesn't offer the same opportunity to grip with our knees - so at that point I stopped trying to be a PCX MotoGP rider. I think that in a normal riding position we'd probably scrape the stand before the tyres gave up; so for me anyway, rolling off the throttle is always my first go-to for fixing a corner radius miscalculation. For the most past I'm usually not far out in my lean/speed anyway - so a small throttle change is all I need to fine tune it. In reality I tend to use counter-steering just to fine tune & balance the bike for a given speed in a corner (I know that sounds a bit contradictory considering what I wrote just before, but the difference is in the amount -- generally I'm just using it as a fine-tuning mechanism).

When it comes to high lean angles - high G-forces - on sport bikes - frankly I wouldn't have a clue! - I'll leave that up to the MotoGP riders like Marquez. Freaking incredible what these guys can do on a bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XxL6xgeHE

[Smaug]

Maverick, the basics of the dynamics are that when you go through a turn at a constant speed, the traction is distributed between the two contact patches almost evenly. The rear contact patch is bigger, so we can corner at higher speeds if we use more of it, and less of the front's. You can distribute traction to the rear more by applying a bit of throttle, mid-turn. Others say also by applying a bit of rear brake. (I haven't tried that yet)

On the new Hondas, this isn't as effective, since the brakes are linked. We get better straight line stopping performance, but have less input on where the braking is applied.

[quote=Maverick]At times I've gone into a corner a bit too quick and the ONLY way I've found that I can tighten the radius is by (1) rolling of the throttle or (if that's not enough) (2) applying some light braking.[/quote]
These work because you weren't at the limit of traction; had more traction available for braking. That's the key to safe street riding: always having a bit of traction in reserve for the unexpected. (whether that's gravel, mid-turn trajectory corrections, etc.) It's totally different than race riding, because in a controlled track area, the riders can count on good pavement, no gravel, a (relatively) safe place to go sliding off the track. They can use 100% of their traction, and they do. They get as much weight as possible off the line of the bike and to the inside of the turn: knees, torso, elbows, even head. It makes a huge difference. On the street, we don't need to be going that fast around turns and it's not worth the risk to do more than lean the torso over, but I guess it's good to keep in mind for emergencies!

Counter-steering tends to come naturally, for everyday conditions. Actually having it in mind is most useful for avoiding road hazards where there was no time to adjust ahead of time. For example a big pot hole that just materialized from under the car in front of you. Or a dead raccoon. Or a couch across the lane. (happened to me once at 70 mph; missed it by only inches, and only because I knew how countersteering works)

[TheMaverick]

Maverick, the basics of the dynamics are that when you go through a turn at a constant speed, the traction is distributed between the two contact patches almost evenly. The rear contact patch is bigger, so we can corner at higher speeds if we use more of it, and less of the front's. You can distribute traction to the rear more by applying a bit of throttle, mid-turn. Others say also by applying a bit of rear brake. (I haven't tried that yet)

On the new Hondas, this isn't as effective, since the brakes are linked. We get better straight line stopping performance, but have less input on where the braking is applied.

I hear people say that a lot, but I'm suspicious of how static weight distribution biases that for something like a PCX, which probably isn't designed to have the same balance a sport bike would have. Additionally, I doubt a PCX changes the weight distribution under acceleration at speed much (I wish it did though!). Mine is a 2014 model (2013 design I believe) but it has the combined braking system.

These work because you weren't at the limit of traction; had more traction available for braking. That's the key to safe street riding: always having a bit of traction in reserve for the unexpected. (whether that's gravel, mid-turn trajectory corrections, etc.) It's totally different than race riding, because in a controlled track area, the riders can count on good pavement, no gravel, a (relatively) safe place to go sliding off the track. They can use 100% of their traction, and they do. They get as much weight as possible off the line of the bike and to the inside of the turn: knees, torso, elbows, even head. It makes a huge difference. On the street, we don't need to be going that fast around turns and it's not worth the risk to do more than lean the torso over, but I guess it's good to keep in mind for emergencies!

For sure. Probably fair to say that sport bikes weigh at least 50% more than our PCXs though (and in my case the riders would generally weigh 50% less!) so body movement probably is going to have more of an influence on the bike for us PCX riders. I don't really do it much other than just lean these days; and when I do it's not so much to take a corner at higher speed -- it's more to just keep the bike more upright when cornering in the wet (I don't like leaning the bike in the wet any more than I have to -- just feels safer and more controllable if it's more upright).

Counter-steering tends to come naturally, for everyday conditions. Actually having it in mind is most useful for avoiding road hazards where there was no time to adjust ahead of time. For example a big pot hole that just materialized from under the car in front of you. Or a dead raccoon. Or a couch across the lane. (happened to me once at 70 mph; missed it by only inches, and only because I knew how countersteering works)

Same. I'd hate to try and miss a brick in the road using only weight shift. I use it all the time, but mostly only as a balance fine-tuner. For the times I use it for collision avoidance I find it only ever shifts the bike off like momentarily though - after that my body position shifts in compensation to keep the balance (assuming no speed change).

[you you]

Maverick, the basics of the dynamics are that when you go through a turn at a constant speed, the traction is distributed between the two contact patches almost evenly. The rear contact patch is bigger, so we can corner at higher speeds if we use more of it, and less of the front's. You can distribute traction to the rear more by applying a bit of throttle, mid-turn. Others say also by applying a bit of rear brake. (I haven't tried that yet)

On the new Hondas, this isn't as effective, since the brakes are linked. We get better straight line stopping performance, but have less input on where the braking is applied.

At times I've gone into a corner a bit too quick and the ONLY way I've found that I can tighten the radius is by (1) rolling of the throttle or (if that's not enough) (2) applying some light braking.

These work because you weren't at the limit of traction; had more traction available for braking. That's the key to safe street riding: always having a bit of traction in reserve for the unexpected. (whether that's gravel, mid-turn trajectory corrections, etc.) It's totally different than race riding, because in a controlled track area, the riders can count on good pavement, no gravel, a (relatively) safe place to go sliding off the track. They can use 100% of their traction, and they do. They get as much weight as possible off the line of the bike and to the inside of the turn: knees, torso, elbows, even head. It makes a huge difference. On the street, we don't need to be going that fast around turns and it's not worth the risk to do more than lean the torso over, but I guess it's good to keep in mind for emergencies!

Counter-steering tends to come naturally, for everyday conditions. Actually having it in mind is most useful for avoiding road hazards where there was no time to adjust ahead of time. For example a big pot hole that just materialized from under the car in front of you. Or a dead raccoon. Or a couch across the lane. (happened to me once at 70 mph; missed it by only inches, and only because I knew how countersteering works)

You are going to shit yourself when you have more than 9hp available.

Or hit the keyboard harder.

I know where my money is at...

[TheMaverick]

You are going to shit yourself when you have more than 9hp available.

Or hit the keyboard harder.

I know where my money is at...

I plan to step up in power gradually. Next purchase will be a 2017 CBR1000RR SP1.

I've been taking lessons from this guy.

[Smaug]

You are going to shit yourself when you have more than 9hp available.

My 2010 Yamaha FJR1300 had 145 hp.

The weight shift to different contact patches is more instantaneous and dramatic with a 145 hp sport-touring bike than a 9 hp scooter for sure, but the point is that if you're at the limit of traction, it doesn't take much to mess things up. Even 9 hp is enough.

It's easy for you to sit here and heckle people with one sentence responses. It takes more effort to type up a long response, trying to be helpful.

[PCX150Rider]

I've been taking lessons from this guy.

I'm sorry. . .I couldn't help but laugh when I saw this.

Cue the tractor trailer retreads. . ..

No matter how good your skills or tire adhesion your life can still change in an instant.

[you you]

You are going to shit yourself when you have more than 9hp available.

My 2010 Yamaha FJR1300 had 145 hp.

The weight shift to different contact patches is more instantaneous and dramatic with a 145 hp sport-touring bike than a 9 hp scooter for sure..

What on earth does that mean?

[TheMaverick]

No matter how good your skills or tire adhesion your life can still change in an instant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbYzhHuDLL4

For sure. I work hard to try to change the odds to be more in my favour though.

This guy understands counter-steering, balance, and power-control:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXWVYtsf43Y[/youtube]