The Honda PCX / Forza / ADV150 / SH Forums

I am a long way from being a whisperer, so what I say should be taken lightly, but here goes anyway.
1. When you turn over the starter do you have a good enough battery that it turns over strongly or does it really have to make an effort?
2. Did you do Easyrider's Suggestion?...Spray some starter fluid into the air box,start cranking..Report back results.
3. Pull the variator cover off and make sure nothing is amuck inside...I know, the rear wheel turns, but there are other parts in there. (This should be the bottom of the suggestions, like when all else fails.)
4. I have a service manual for 2013 model. I have made a copy of the Fuel System chapter, if you would like a copy....or any other chapter, let me know and I will see what I can do. I could scan it in and email it, but then you would end up having to print it out, so I could just as easily send you a copy in the mail. Your choice.
5. If ALL ELSE FAILS, drain the fuel and pour some fresh fuel in. It may be the fuel anyway...doesn't hurt to suggest it.
I hope one or some of this helps. Like I said, I am not a PCX whisperer, so they would have better ideas.

Mel46 wrote:I am a long way from being a whisperer, so what I say should be taken lightly, but here goes anyway.
1. When you turn over the starter do you have a good enough battery that it turns over strongly or does it really have to make an effort?

Yes, it turn over fine.

Mel46 wrote:2. Did you do Easyrider's Suggestion?...Spray some starter fluid into the air box,start cranking..Report back results.

No not tried, but will.

Mel46 wrote:3. Pull the variator cover off and make sure nothing is amuck inside...I know, the rear wheel turns, but there are other parts in there. (This should be the bottom of the suggestions, like when all else fails.)

Problems with the variator (once the rear wheel is off the ground wouldn't stop the engine starting.

Mel46 wrote:4. I have a service manual for 2013 model. I have made a copy of the Fuel System chapter, if you would like a copy....or any other chapter, let me know and I will see what I can do. I could scan it in and email it, but then you would end up having to print it out, so I could just as easily send you a copy in the mail. Your choice.

Now this would be very welcome, at the risk of being forward is the manual electronic if so how big is the file?

Mel46 wrote:5. If ALL ELSE FAILS, drain the fuel and pour some fresh fuel in. It may be the fuel anyway...doesn't hurt to suggest it.

The Fuel in the UK is very good especially from a main stations, the fuel in it is Shell I very much doubt there's anything wrong with the fuel.

I've yet to see the bike, I was going to collect it but my son has mow gone to Europe for a couple months working while his Uni is closed for the summer.

Thank for your help.

Does the ECY flash any error codes when the key is turned / bike starting attempted?

Well, the computer that I scanned the fuel system chapter into had the video card go out, so it will have to go to the shop. However, I did make a paper copy of the Fuel System Chapter so it will be very easy to scan it into my tablet. I will let you know how large it is after I do. Since it is scanned in as pictures the choice is to either zip them into multiple files or I could turn them into one big pdf file. Which would you prefer?

iceman wrote:Does the ECY flash any error codes when the key is turned / bike starting attempted?

No error codes or lights it's got to be something simple

Mel46 wrote:Well, the computer that I scanned the fuel system chapter into had the video card go out, so it will have to go to the shop. However, I did make a paper copy of the Fuel System Chapter so it will be very easy to scan it into my tablet. I will let you know how large it is after I do. Since it is scanned in as pictures the choice is to either zip them into multiple files or I could turn them into one big pdf file. Which would you prefer?

I was being forward in thinking perhaps you had the while manual, in PDF or something?

If you have the anything I'd be grateful.

What happened?

Ok finally I got the bike over to me and stripped it.

It had seized, but not like any engine I've seen before, the little end had seized solid to the piston pin, the piston pin was ripped from the bottom of the piston! The piston was jammed at the at just before TDC and had hit the inlet and exhaust valves, the conrod is I think slightly bent, due to it striking the bottom edges of the cylinder, the remains of the piston pin mounts are in the crank case. I could turn the engine over and see the valves move as the conrod wasn't attached to the piston, that's what was making the noise as you hot the starter! Quite why Honda don't include low oil pressure into the ECM and cut it out preventing an engine starting/running with low oil pressure is beyond me, but they don't, they is no engine or fault codes.

Basically the engine is destroyed, the cost of replacing all the damaged parts and if possible re-boring the cylinder (I don't think it can be due to the damage caused by the conrod) would be close on £1200 it's just not worth it. I've sourced a replacement engine/rear wheel assembly for £300 it's done 7000miles approx what this engine has done, hopefully it's a good (the dealer isn't lying!) engine and will be a straight bolt on and go!

So word of warning make sure you check the oil level weekly, these little engines only have just over a litre of oil and work hard due to their RPM!

My lads learnt a very expensive lesson as he's going to be paying me back!

Well that sucks.

I think I'll go check my oil....

Thanks for the follow up. I was curious about this one.
Was there no oil in the engine when you opened it up?
Maybe the cause was the piston hitting the valves?

E. Foster Salsbury wrote:Thanks for the follow up. I was curious about this one.
Was there no oil in the engine when you opened it up?
Maybe the cause was the piston hitting the valves?

He#d allowed the oil to drop to well below the dip stick.

The reason it sized and caused all the damage including hitting the vales is because there was insufficient oil feed to the small end, on these singles oil is used not only to lub the small end but too cool the underside of the piston crown. With no oil going to the small end the piston and the small end would have over heated, causing the piston pin to seized and sheer force break off from the underside. With the piston stuck at TDC the crank was/is still turning the valves opened and hit the piston.

It's nothing more than a total lack of oil.

Techno wrote:

E. Foster Salsbury wrote:Thanks for the follow up. I was curious about this one.
Was there no oil in the engine when you opened it up?
Maybe the cause was the piston hitting the valves?

He#d allowed the oil to drop to well below the dip stick.

The reason it sized and caused all the damage including hitting the vales is because there was insufficient oil feed to the small end, on these singles oil is used not only to lub the small end but too cool the underside of the piston crown. With no oil going to the small end the piston and the small end would have over heated, causing the piston pin to seized and sheer force break off from the underside. With the piston stuck at TDC the crank was/is still turning the valves opened and hit the piston.

It's nothing more than a total lack of oil.

Fair enough. Appreciate your honesty.

Damn!! Talk about killing an Engine!

Techno wrote: It's nothing more than a total lack of oil.

Does the PCX not have a low oil pressure cut-off?

They do with their EU2.0i generators - just quite surprising that they don't on the PCX - wouldn't have thought it would have been hard to implement.

I'm going to go hug my compression gauge. OH COMPRESSION GAUGE how do I love thee... let me count the ways.

So sorry to hear about the catastrophic failure and sorry it took so long to find out why it wouldn't start.

Techno wrote:It's nothing more than a total lack of oil.

I think your son's 2011 might be the original pre ESP motor?

If it is I would check the centrestand lugs under the engine.
These are insufficiently strong due to poor design, are prone to cracking and have been known to rip holes in the crankcase letting the slippery stuff out.
Honda know about this fault and when it happened to me they offered to supply all parts free but I would have had to pay the labour to get them replaced by a Honda dealer.

If you are buying a replacement engine the original and the later ESP with the strengthened stand mounts are incompatible, the engine pivots are completely different.

TheMaverick wrote:

Techno wrote: It's nothing more than a total lack of oil.

Does the PCX not have a low oil pressure cut-off?

They do with their EU2.0i generators - just quite surprising that they don't on the PCX - wouldn't have thought it would have been hard to implement.

Could be dangerous to have a cut off.

you you wrote:

TheMaverick wrote:

Techno wrote: It's nothing more than a total lack of oil.

Does the PCX not have a low oil pressure cut-off?

They do with their EU2.0i generators - just quite surprising that they don't on the PCX - wouldn't have thought it would have been hard to implement.

Could be dangerous to have a cut off.

Why? Surely the only difference between the engine shutting down due a protection device activating -v- shutting down due to catastrophic failure due to lack of oil is the cost of the repair? Or even if the engine isn't shut down then at least flash a warning light.

TheMaverick wrote:

you you wrote:

TheMaverick wrote:
Does the PCX not have a low oil pressure cut-off?

They do with their EU2.0i generators - just quite surprising that they don't on the PCX - wouldn't have thought it would have been hard to implement.

Could be dangerous to have a cut off.

Why? Surely the only difference between the engine shutting down due a protection device activating -v- shutting down due to catastrophic failure due to lack of oil is the cost of the repair? Or even if the engine isn't shut down then at least flash a warning light.

Warning light yes, cut off no.

gn2 wrote:

Techno wrote:It's nothing more than a total lack of oil.

I think your son's 2011 might be the original pre ESP motor?

If it is I would check the centrestand lugs under the engine.
These are insufficiently strong due to poor design, are prone to cracking and have been known to rip holes in the crankcase letting the slippery stuff out.
Honda know about this fault and when it happened to me they offered to supply all parts free but I would have had to pay the labour to get them replaced by a Honda dealer.

If you are buying a replacement engine the original and the later ESP with the strengthened stand mounts are incompatible, the engine pivots are completely different.

Looking at the engines it appears Honda changed the mountings which may be what you're referring to. His bike/engine (2010 - 2012) has the frame mounting on top, where as later types (2012 on in the UK) have mountings at the bottom front, or that's what it looks like to me. I've got a complete replacement engine/drive/rear wheel assembly. I don't use mainstands as a rule they are less stable than side stands, in that the bike can be tipped, on the side stand it's much harder due to the fact it's over to one side. For servicing or storage in a garage they're fine.

I will check both engines though as I didn't know about the mainstand issue, its possible in the UK all bikes were modified or are what you call ESP as you guys often get bikes before we do.