2013 Performance

[ScooterMan]

You need at tach so you know where to set the weights to get the pulling rpm to 8,000.
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http://www.amazon.com/Koso-North-Americ ... B0041QMSE0
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Ordered! Thanks for the link!

Well this will be interesting. Standing by for results. =) I'll prob try swapping in the 13G weights in the next few days and see what happens. =) A tach would be nice for tuning on a scooter.

[vamootsman]

Tach is supposed to be in Friday so will try to get it mounted before I do anything else. Seeing the RPM's is going to be a huge bonus for dialing in the tuning.

[vamootsman]

Very nice Vamootsman. You may want to just buy some different weights. NCY makes some and they're on the web for $20 a set (I forget where, maybe Amazon). Anyway, I've been waffling on the pod filter. Rode mine yesterday again, and know I'm liking the pod filter more again. Lol.

When are you going to mount up that exhaust? Also, what speed were you hitting the limiter at? Going to buy your son a new 2015 or a used 2013?

Didn't get to he rollers today. Too rainy to ride til Wed so will worry about it then.
I can Drill them out on my press in few minutes, so gonna finish drilling these then maybe buy some others weights to experiment with if need be. Would using 3 13gr and 3 15gr do anything? I don't fully understand the vario physics so don't shoot me if it's a dumb question.

I hit the rev limiter at 80mph on the stand, but can't cant close to that on the road.



Exhaust will come this week if all goes well.

May get myself a 15 and let my son ride the 13 since I want a bigger tank, unless I can score a good deal on 13 or 14. saving a grand or more leaves a lot of play money to deck out a new to me sled.

I drilled the rollers out to about 12.5 grams each. Acceleration from 0-45 is definitely better, but the top speed seems to be about the same. Theres no way this thing is going to go any faster top end without more power.

[ScooterMan]

Is the exhaust on yet?

I like mine with the 13g rollers I just put in a few days ago. Actually reminds me a bit of an old two stroke when you take off. First you get the bog then the power comes on like a light switch! Exaggerated of course, but you get the idea.

[sendler2112]

Lightening the rollers will never add top speed. At some rpm well below top speed depending on the weight, the rollers are locked all the way out and then speed only increases evenly with rpm until you run out of power and balance the wind. Or hit the rev limiter. If you go too light the torque slot can still pull the weights back in from the load of a top speed run and you will start losing top speed. I have 12gm sliders in my 2013 PCX150 and it pulls at 8,000 rpm and redlines at 69 mph/ 9,600 rpm after the "maximizing" of the vario stop even with my worn parts. Snorkel removed and exhaust drilled.

[ScooterMan]

Lightening the rollers will never add top speed. At some rpm well below top speed depending on the weight, the rollers are locked all the way out and then speed only increases evenly with rpm until you run out of power

So, you're saying that lighter rollers will give you better accel down low, but less accel once they lock out while not affecting theoretical top speed (providind you have a tailwing or slope). I felt that when I swapped in the 16g then the 13g in place of the 18g's, that it didn't seem to have as much accel from lockout to max RPM as it did with the 18g's! I could hit redline easier with the 18g's, but of course it was slower accelerating down low. THat sound right? I could be wrong as it's all seat of the pants testing at this point. A little more wind, 8-10 degrees cooler out (more dense air), more cars on the road (better draft) really skews my "seat of the pants" readings. Hard to get comparative Data. This is where a Dyno would really help.

But, I'm also comparing parts on one scooter to parts on another sometimes, so that's not fair. What i have noticed though is that the MPG is not hurt at all by going from 16g to 13g rollers on the 2015, in fact, it's better so far!

[vamootsman]

I'm not putting the exhaust on til I get the tach installed. That's the only way to know if I've actually gotten a power increase; leave everything as is and add the exhaust. I will unplug the battery when I do it so the injection will reset/remap hopefully.

All things were the same yesterday on my test run area, which has flats, hills, and 6+mile interstate run with a long uphill on ramp right off the Mississipi River on I80 on the Iowa side.

[vamootsman]

OK, with 12 gram rollers, this thing is down right peppy off the line. May try lighter ones when all else is done, though I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns if you go too light.

[ScooterMan]

OK, with 12 gram rollers, this thing is down right peppy off the line. May try lighter ones when all else is done, though I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns if you go too light.

Well, for one, you have the "danger" of overheating the scooter. With lighter rollers you have higher RPM's for the same speeds causing coolant temps to rise. This can be combatted by running higher ocatne fuel (i run 89 anyway) in order to drop combustion temps slightly and keep things in check. May not be an issue in moderate climates, but on a 100 degree day with low humidity, a 300lb rider going full throttle 20 minutes straight up an incline...might be an issue.

Also, you want the RPM to be approx 8k (where the engine makes the most power) at full throttle until lockout. If you were to drill out the rollers to 8g, it might be redlining at 9600rpm at full throttle, a full 2-3hp lower than the power it's making at 8k.

[vamootsman]

OK, with 12 gram rollers, this thing is down right peppy off the line. May try lighter ones when all else is done, though I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns if you go too light.

Well, for one, you have the "danger" of overheating the scooter. With lighter rollers you have higher RPM's for the same speeds causing coolant temps to rise. This can be combatted by running higher ocatne fuel (i run 89 anyway) in order to drop combustion temps slightly and keep things in check. May not be an issue in moderate climates, but on a 100 degree day with low humidity, a 300lb rider going full throttle 20 minutes straight up an incline...might be an issue.

Also, you want the RPM to be approx 8k (where the engine makes the most power) at full throttle until lockout. If you were to drill out the rollers to 8g, it might be redlining at 9600rpm at full throttle, a full 2-3hp lower than the power it's making at 8k.

That is exactly why I'm installing a tach, if it ever arrives.

Anyone have any leads on where to buy 20x15 rollers in the 8 to 10 gram range?

[Pcxdemon]

OK, with 12 gram rollers, this thing is down right peppy off the line. May try lighter ones when all else is done, though I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns if you go too light.

Well, for one, you have the "danger" of overheating the scooter. With lighter rollers you have higher RPM's for the same speeds causing coolant temps to rise. This can be combatted by running higher ocatne fuel (i run 89 anyway) in order to drop combustion temps slightly and keep things in check. May not be an issue in moderate climates, but on a 100 degree day with low humidity, a 300lb rider going full throttle 20 minutes straight up an incline...might be an issue.

Also, you want the RPM to be approx 8k (where the engine makes the most power) at full throttle until lockout. If you were to drill out the rollers to 8g, it might be redlining at 9600rpm at full throttle, a full 2-3hp lower than the power it's making at 8k.

That is exactly why I'm installing a tach, if it ever arrives.

Anyone have any leads on where to buy 20x15 rollers in the 8 to 10 gram range?

Webike, Daytona sells them at packs of three so you can by diff weights to mix and match diff combos and have an option of increasing weight setup by .5g ie 9.5g or 10.5 and so on. .5g could mean a perfect set up or just not quite there yet..

[vamootsman]

Anyone have any leads on where to buy 20x15 rollers in the 8 to 10 gram range?[/quote]

Webike, Daytona sells them at packs of three so you can by diff weights to mix and match diff combos and have an option of increasing weight setup by .5g ie 9.5g or 10.5 and so on. .5g could mean a perfect set up or just not quite there yet..[/quote]

Awsome, Thank you!

[vamootsman]

Finally got around to working on the scoot and am stoked with the results.

The Givi Top case is mounted, so more room to haul Groceries wine and beer, and a backrest for my best friend

Installed the tack so I track the RPM's

Installed the Silent Oval exhaust and super impressed!
Midrange power is definitely up. Off the line its pulls harder to 50mph, and out of corner it pulls way harder from 25 to 50. I'm shocked at the difference.
Top speed is up to 68-72, without drafting, and,,,,, with the Top case on. Not bad at all since I'm also pushing the Tall Givi Screen. Never would have guessed that it would do it with just the exhaust mod.
It runs around 7900 8700 rpm's on the highway at top end.

An added bonus is that it sounds like mini KLR650. The exhaust note is so much better that it would have been worth the price just for the sound.

So Far I'm frigg'n giddy with the results

Next I'm going to add the K&N cone but I'm doing it inside the airbox to keep the noise down. Someone on here has instructions for doing it, just can't remember right now to give them credit.

Then I'm going to try some lighter rollers.

Love'n the PCX

[sendler2112]

Installed the Silent Oval exhaust and super impressed!
Midrange power is definitely up. Off the line its pulls harder to 50mph, and out of corner it pulls way harder from 25 to 50. I'm shocked at the difference.

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Too bad you never did any video or timed runs. Seat of the pants evaluations can have such a strong "Emperor's clothes" effect from the change to the sound and from all the money you just spent.
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Next I'm going to add the K&N cone but I'm doing it inside the airbox to keep the noise down.

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At least putting the pod filter in the air box will retain the tuned intake runner so it will run right.

[vamootsman]

Installed the Silent Oval exhaust and super impressed!
Midrange power is definitely up. Off the line its pulls harder to 50mph, and out of corner it pulls way harder from 25 to 50. I'm shocked at the difference.

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Too bad you never did any video or timed runs. Seat of the pants evaluations can have such a strong "Emperor's clothes" effect from the change to the sound and from all the money you just spent.
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Next I'm going to add the K&N cone but I'm doing it inside the airbox to keep the noise down.

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At least putting the pod filter in the air box will retain the tuned intake runner so it will run right.

I work on and race bicycles (25 years now) so am very in tune with even subtle changes in speed and acceleration. Have also been riding motorcycles for 30+ years.
Trust me, Its definitely faster all around. I'll try to time it this week if I get a chance just for reference.

[sendler2112]

10-50 mph is a good metric and is better than 0-60 for this scooter since it eliminates the launch and the fuel injection's intentional lag for the first few tenths after take off and it takes too much clear real estate to reach 60. And a hill climb if you have a long enough hill nearby that is steep enough to top out somewhere between 45 and 55 mph. But of course we have no baseline for your machine from before so we still won't know anything.

[ScooterMan]

Nice to hear that you're liking the exhaust. I installed mine the same time as the pod filter so I can't give you a hint as to how each mod feels alone. Regarding installing the pod filter in the airbox, I'm not so sure that's a benefit over just running the standaard air filter the way it already is. And, installing the pod filter is about a 45 min to 1 hour job start to finish (Don't forget to oil it).

But yeah, glad to hear you like the power it's making evn with the stock air filter as that means if I ever get tired of the sound, I can feel good about removing the filter. I still have barely ridden my scooter since installing everything, and I live in San Diego!

[ScooterMan]

I meant if you install the pod filter directly on the throttle body its 45min to an hour.

There is some debate about "tuned length" but overall, it's not a myth, but you have to understand what "tuned" means. The "Tuned" portion has to due with the length of the intake. Changing the length changes the RPM which the sonic pules bounce back and forth and meet at the entrance to the throttle body at the precise time the intake valve is opening and sending another dose of fuel/air mix into the engine. At that magical RPM, the pulse is arriving "at the door" of the Throttle body at the same time the valve is opening giving it a little "kick." But this "sweet spot" only occurs at a specific RPM. So, whatever you give up by changing the length, you gain at another RPM. Shorter length = higher RPM benefit, longer length = lower RPM benefit. Ultimately, if you were running 13G rollers, and full throttle on the CVT meant you were accelerating at 8k RPM, you'd want to tune the intake length for that rpm. No way to know however without throwing the bike on the dyno and experimenting with different intake lengths to find out what length provides the most power at 8k rpm.

Really not sure where Honda chose to "tune" it to, but I can bet it's not about optimum performance, but rather for design ease of getting to the airbox and such for ease of maintenance. Anyway, whatever RPM they designed it to work at goes out the window when you start changing roller weights. I wouldn't put too much stock into the "tuned" length. As I mentioned before, all modern sportbikes have a very short velocity stack (trumpet) on the throttle body that is maybe 2-3 inches long. Shorter is better for more top end. If you're putting in lightweight rollers and trying to maximize efficiency at high RPM's in order to sustain higher top speeds, you may be better off with just throwing it right on the throttle body.

But man, I'm no engine scientist...just a former motorcycle mechanic.

If I was to put my airbox back on, I think I'd experiment with dring some holes near the current opening, or just enlarging that opening some.

[sendler2112]

No way to know however without throwing the bike on the dyno and experimenting with different intake lengths to find out what length provides the most power at 8k rpm.

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There have been locked dynos for the pcx150 posted in other threads. The stock tuning already has it's power peak at 8,000. That is why we are tuning our varios to that rpm. The tuned runner is also providing a bump in the torque peak at 6,000 which gives the bike it's exemplary fuel economy. But a runner tuned for 6k will be a loss at 9.000 so this, along with the cam tuning, is why we see the power falling off at redline. Eliminating the runner with a pod filter might tend to move the power band higher in rpm which would increase it except that you will then need to remap the mixture or you will be rich at 6k and lean at redline. And you are also trowing away the torque bump at 6k. The O2 sensor can only perform global trimming to the mixture which might take care of a loud exhaust and the snorkel removal.

[ScooterMan]

No way to know however without throwing the bike on the dyno and experimenting with different intake lengths to find out what length provides the most power at 8k rpm.

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There have been locked dynos for the pcx150 posted in other threads. The stock tuning already has it's power peak at 8,000. That is why we are tuning our varios to that rpm. The tuned runner is also providing a bump in the torque peak at 6,000 which gives the bike it's exemplary fuel economy. But a runner tuned for 6k will be a loss at 9.000 so this, along with the cam tuning, is why we see the power falling off at redline. Eliminating the runner with a pod filter might tend to move the power band higher in rpm which would increase it except that you will then need to remap the mixture or you will be rich at 6k and lean at redline. And you are also trowing away the torque bump at 6k. The O2 sensor can only perform global trimming to the mixture which might take care of a loud exhaust and the snorkel removal.

Yes, things get technical. I'm not completely gung-ho on the pod filter idea, and don't care for the added sound from it really. I wish I'd run just the exhaust and done some trial and error. But as you said, seat of the pants testing can vary based on so many variables. And, with the amount of difference a pod filter vs airbox can make (prob no more or less than a 1/4hp), a full vs 1/4 tank of gas, 3-5mph more headwind, a few degrees in ambient temp or humiduty differences make getting comparative results hopeless. I'm such a weight savings freak that if nothing else, even if I lost a tad with the pod, it the 2 1/4lbs in weight make up for it, then I'll keep it. Lol.

When I attended MMI 20 years ago, in our 4 stroke performance class, we played with intake tuned length and dyno'd the results to see the effect. Theoretically, you want the cam, intake tuned length, exhaust tuned length, and volumetric efficiency of the motor to all line up at the same RPM. Due to the design constraints of a motorcycle, it's not always possible and quite often isn't executed.

I had to laugh when the undertail exhaust trend hit the market 10 years ago on sportbikes as all my calculations of an inline 4 motorcycle with the headers coming out in the traditional location, showed that an undertail exhaust is too long for the intended RPM operation of an inline 4 cyl sportbike. They had to be giving up a few ponies in the name of "style."