The Honda PCX / Forza / ADV150 / SH Forums

Hello riders!
I just bought a new Forza a few days ago and a friend, ChuckTuna, suggested I stop by the PCX/Forza forum.

I've ridden motorcycles all my life as my primary transportation and I am a HONDA rider.
I currently own 5 bikes (mostly old ones!), including 2 Big Ruckus PS250s....
one is tuned for topend and max mileage on the interstate...top speed:84mph and fuel mileage:68mpg
this scoot crossed the continental US from North Carolina to California in 3 days.

the other one is tuned like a drag bike using a Reflex carb and BEAMS exhaust and will do 0-60 <9sec....
it's mileage isn't worth mentioning!

I met Chuck through TotalRuckus and we've ridden together several times at various rallys.

I am a retired network administrator by profession and a motorcycle mechanic by passion.
I'm a distance rider and have completed several IronButt rides, including one SS1000 on a Big Ruckus.....
1024 miles in 17 hours, 3 minutes.

I've racked up over 70000 miles on the two Big Rucks since 2006.

I'm pretty sure I have the only RED Forza on the North American continent!
eh, maybe not but I intend to make it THE fastest red Forza in North America!

When I posted on TR that I planned to retune the Forza variator, Chuck thought this site might be a good place to dump Veypor data....

see, that's what happens when you give an obsessive compulsive with attention deficit disorder a scooter and tuning computer.

nice to meet y'all!!

Welcome! I'm the opposite of you being new to biking (3 months scooting) and not a clue how to tune or service bikes, although there's lot's of info on this forum how to look after my pcx!

Welcome to the Forum!
(but don't feed the Forza waffles....don't ask me how I know).

Keep us updated on how you go about tuning the Forza variator and and also about your tuning computer.

Welcome! I've ridden motorcycles in the past. But decided I didn't want a full size bike again. Test rode the a few scoots and loved the Forza.
Been really enjoying her. I look forward to reading your mod threads!

Hello Red! Welcome to the forum and thanks for your lovely pictures!

Cheers

Z-Mac

Welcome! Like others, I'm very interested in your findings.

Glad to see you made It here Ed.

No Forza for me (yet)> Came across a deal on a PCX about a year ago so thats why I'm here.

Good info as usual on the Forza's inner workings

Since we don't have a Forza Performance section yet, I'll just post this here:

I finally got a service manual to show me how to put it back together and get the torques right, so tonight I tore my CVT apart!

I had to see the outboard bearing shown in the manual for myself and I also had to confirm with my own eyes what roller weight the Forza used.

As far as I know these are the first US pics of the inside of a Forza's cvt.....










this is the new outboard drive shaft bearing....this is the first application of this I've seen in a single cylinder scooter.
there is a bushing with a grease seal (O-rings) under the clutch bell nut that slides into that bearing and stabilizes the final drive shaft.

I wonder if this bearing was present in the very first Forza 300s released in Thailand a few years back, prior to the rearend upgrade or if it was added as part of the final drive upgrade?

























Confirmed......126G total weight. Actual individual rollers were 21.05 grams.
Rollers were of tighter tolerance than your typical 21G Reflex rollers. +/ .05G

I had heard the SH300i used 6x19G rollers for better bottom end and the Forza used 6x21G for better fuel mileage.
This was sort of gratifying since several years ago, my roller testing on the Big Ruckus had shown that 6 21g rollers gave best fuel mileage and highway speed, while 6 19G rollers gave a sportier ride, better 0-60 and still acceptable mileage.

In fact one of my Big Rucks is running 21G rollers right now!










This will be my first upgrade when the time comes.....
only 3 Grams difference in weight but sliders move differently down the ramps than rollers....they drag along instead of rolling.
They change the shape of the acceleration curve...flatter curve with less RPM loss during upshift than with rollers.
Combining 3 rollers with 3 sliders in right weight combinations in the OEM Honda variator can mimic almost any aftermarket variator's performance, including the J.Costa.

As soon as I wire the Veypor harness to the Forza, I can get some baseline stats for the stock bike.....
the best thing about this is, unlike all the scooters I've tuned so far, I don't have to do anything to the carb.
I am an old Keihin CV carb guy (every bike I own, even the Russian one, has CV carbs)......
the Forza is my first fuel injected bike. long live the CV



outside looking in my almost finished shop

some pics of my Big Ruckus (PS250) modified for distance riding.....
stock carb with a Dial-a-Jet, 126G roller weight, Malossi yellow clutch springs, punched factory pipe, 5.2 gallon capacity @68mpg.

it finished a SS1000 IronButt ride and the 2008 Scooter CannonBall run and crossed the US (2600 miles) in 3 days.

Nice.....

Mods can we get a Forza Performance section?

BRed thanks for the picts and info!

Since the Forza still has some break-in miles before I start changing weights,
here is some info on the tuning computer I use.

In the past I've used a VR1 and a VR2 but about a year ago my VR2's display went blank.
I returned it for service but it couldn't be repaired.
Instead they sent me a new VR3....how lucky can you get?

The VR3 is the first tuning computer that I know of that has internal firmware specifically for computing CVT gear ratios, instead of using the stepped 4, 5 or 6 speed gearing used on the earlier Veypors.
I (and many others) had pleaded with MPI to include this feature just for scooter tuners in their firmware updates.
I don't think the earlier versions support it but the VR3 does.

It's actually very simple:
an engine sensor reads crank rpm
a rear wheel sensor reads wheel rpm
compare the two numbers and you have the CVT's ratio at any given point.....
normally this is something like 2.50:1 in low gear, variator open, and something like .8:1 with the variator closed.

So no more wondering if your favorite weight combinations are really reaching high gear....



Full specs on the Veypor products, including the VR3 (they're building a model for electric vehicles now):

http://www.veypor.com/veypor.html


And here are some graphs from the last Big Ruckus I modified.
It shows some of the unique characteristics of rollers as compared to sliders and it show why I like a combination of sliders and rollers best of all!



Stock Big Ruckus w/3800 miles


this graph show the classic roller "S" rpm curve





Stock Big Ruckus compared to modded Big Ruckus







19 Gram DR Pulley sliders in stock bike


This graph shows the classic rising "hockeystick" rpm curve of sliders






This graph show the FLAT acceleration curve of roller/slider combinations....
the engine does not gain or lose rpm during the entire upshift process....FLAT!






This graph shows a summary of several early steps in tuning a stock bike:







OEM clutch, Malossi Delta clutch and HiT clutch comparison with same basic setup:






The HiT clutch proves that a clutch can affect more than just the first few seconds....
by engaging later, at higher rpm, the HiT changes the shape of any weight rpm curve.
And for a drag racer, that 2 second jump off the line over stock is a killer edge.


J.Costa variator driving a HiT clutch w/rejetted carb + K&N

Hi BRed, I'm sorry this is off topic a bit, but.. I bought a 2nd hand Veypor VR2 to help tune my engine build on my bike. Since the company is now out of business, I can't get the VAS software or the firmware upgrade anywhere. I noticed you mentioned that you had used this datalogger in the past. I'm hoping that you may have retained a copy of that software {as systems admins are prone to do:)) } that you would be willing to email to me. I would certainly be happy to pay you something for your time and trouble. Please contact me at speedkeys2@yahoo.com if you're able/willing to help me out. Thanks very much, Marc

Marc:
I may indeed have some of the older versions of the Veypor Analytical Software on a backup drive. I'll check.

I have an older VR1 and after an upgrade about a year ago too my VR2 to the most recent VR3 firmware which included for the first time variable gearing calculations for a CVT type transmission as long as you know the FD ratio...
a perfect tool for scooter tuners.

I would need to know your firmware version (I might have an update for that as well) and the interface type...
later ones used a USB port and earlier ones used an RS-232 serial port for downloading.
If I have it, you can have a copy...it was a free download for me.

ed

Hi, BRed. Just a couple of odd things to mention.

First, for some reason I can’t see any of the pictures you post. In place of each and every one is the same "upgrade your account" notice. Behold:

http://hondapcx.org/download/file.php?m ... w&id=12326

Second, I am in Cola, SC (formerly Durham, NC) and also have several Iron Butt rides to my credit. So, pleased to meet you.

Michael

It's photobucket. They are holding people to ransome if they use the service for image hosting.

Not nice.

You you is right....PhotoBucket has gone commercial after 10 or 12 years of free use.

Don't worry....your linked images will reappear when you send us $300 in BitCoin.

My apologies to all.....admins, feel free to delete any thread of mine with dead links that annoy you.
Without the pics, most are meaningless anyway.

The Internet has become a graveyard full of countless PhotoBucket tombstones.....

Rest in Peace, PhotoBucket.

Hi BRed,
I went through your thread(s) last year or so and loved to see the success with using the VR2/3. The pics were still there.
Nowadys, I bought 2 and a half Veypor/VR2. :-) But unluckyly, the www.veypor.com page went offline some months ago.
With https://web.archive.org it is possible, to find all of the former page(s) of Veypor.
BUT,
there is no firmwar or software or manual available, so no files any more.
Can someone help me and sent me files via e-mail for the Veypor and VR2 and maybe VR3, also the VAS?
Many thanx for help and advice.

Cheers
Carsten

By the way,
the old veypor page says, that the VR2 already shows the actual gear ratio. So comparing the two ratios before and after pulley work, it should show you, how good your service for the drivetrain was (belt length, belt width, Dr.Pulleys, shimming, etc. etc.).
Maybe the VR3 (-VAS) will then additionally allow for more graphs to use for better CVT- setup, I'm not sure. My Veypors just came in and are sitting since minths without ever been checked (so they are used ones!).
Cheers
Carsten

P.S.:Funny or not. When I went through your posts many months, a year or two, ago, I saved all the pics/graphes to my hard drive. But this hard drive went bang. So still to wait, for repairing, backup was tooo long ago. And is a mechanically hard drive damage, so making noice, no Linix is helping at that point. Needs to be opened in professional clean room and that'll cost lot's of hundreds of bucks. :-(

Cheers
Carsten