headlight upgrade

[djcat]

Thats my take on aftermarket HIDs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5n38wDe684

Plus, HIDs are not that much better then good quality halogens and the blue (ish) light is rubbish in adverse weather conditions. Blue is also the only colour that makes the human eye misjudge distances - thats why we think that mountain is so close on a clear sunny day against the blue sky in the background. It also interferes with contrast, try looking at a blue light font outdoor advertisement from a distance and you will see that the letters aren´t as easy to see or that it becomes blurry.

The beam pattern of the PCXs is remarkably good and its nothing short of a miracle for 35W bulbs. I always upgrade bulbs from stock, unfortunately there are no upgradable halogen bulbs for the PCX and HIDs scatter too much light. The aftermarket HID bulbs are not made to fit standard reflectors, the focal point for the light is different.

If there were any E marked LEDs for the PCX, yes I would try them out because they can focus light at exactly the same point as a Halogen bulb can (plus they run cooler and use even less power then HIDs). But HIDs, no. Not me.

The reason why people don´t see bikes is because they don´t look...the PCX headlight is very good quality and has a lot of luminous surface area - the best thing you can have on a bike headlight to be seen.

I think that additional lights can improve people´s ability to judge distances, though. If you give two or more light points for people to look at, they will have a better idea of how to judge distance then with just a single light coming straight towards them. Thats why cars are better "seen", two lights apart give a better reference and also an angular distance to judge.

The "A Fighter Pilot’s Guide to Surviving on the Roads..." might help to understand what I am on about: http://www.slobc.org/safety/documents/r ... -guide.pdf

[sendler2112]

Those bi-zenon projectors are the nicest lights made. If they weren't so much trouble to install I would buy a set of those in a second. Why would you think the aftermarket HID's would be blue? I chose 4,500k for the color temp when I put them in my CBR250R and they are amazing to see with and be seen. Road reflectors and animal eyes light up so much farther down the road it is unbelievable until you try it. I also have two additional led spots and have replaced the white front running lights and yellow running lights in the turn signals with led's. The front of the bike is now very conspicuously white hot.
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[djcat]

Ouch, I can´t see much after looking at that picture....way too much scattered light all over the place blinding me! And blue or blue(ish) is the colour most HID enthusiasts choose for their light, believing all the nonsense they read on the HID sales adverts that it makes for wonderful natural light.

[sendler2112]

That is just the way the camera makes it look when you take a photo of a headlight in a pitch black room. The pencil beam LED's were on also. The DDM tuning HID's throw a perfect low beam pattern in the CBR250R with no more splash than the stock lamp. And they are 2-3 times as bright. I can see the road like it is day on that bike. Too bad they don't make them for the PCX which has an even better reflector. And, now you won't pull out in your car and hit me even in the day. White light is much more conspicuous than yellow light.
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[djcat]

Well US headlight standards are different to European ones, they do allow more light out on the top to allow road signs to reflect. I notice that every time I drive in the US, so you might not see that much of a difference in light scattering.

Fact is that a bulb that isn't made to put light on the reflector's focal point, will scatter.

What I did on my XL1000 was the opposite, I went for totally yellow halogen bulbs and they sure made me stand out of the sea of car headlights. I had much less moments with them and even if, those who cut me off did so with more advanced notice...there will always be people who don't look so expect the unexpected at all times no matter what light you got.

[djcat]

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech ... sions.html

Another article explaining why aftermarket HID is a bad idea, even if you are impressed with it.

[sendler2112]

His argument against HID retrofits describes a totally different shape of the light source and then he shows a comparison with drawings and scaled measurement graphics which appear to me to be nearly identical on the applicable scale of things.
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I agree, the early HID cob jobs were totally terrible with a one size fits all bulb that had the light source extended a 1/2 inch to far into the housing. They sucked and people like you still seem to think this is the current state of affairs. But the modern HID retrofits are designed to exactly replace the halogen bulb that you took out so the fire is in the exact right place. They work perfect and provide exactly as good a beam pattern as the halogen with twice the light. And the kits are offered with a choice of light color which if you are not a teenage kid that wants purple just because, you can choose 4,500k which is the perfect color to see and be seen. These are much safer to see and be seen with than the stock halogens. As soon as motorcycles come with night road illumination and daytime running lights that are on par with a modern car, I will stop advocating for upgraded headlights and additional auxiliary lights on bikes.
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[sendler2112]

Interesting that his own tests show more light AND a better pattern with the HID conversions in the second two examples. Four times the light.
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http://dastern.torque.net/techdocs/HID/ ... _Retro.pdf
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http://dastern.torque.net/techdocs/HID/ ... etro_a.pdf
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[geek77]

Sendler, the halogen bulb has the filament positioned closer to the end of the bulb, while the gas bubble with the Xenon arc is precisely in the center of the bulb.

That is what causes the wider angles of the projected light. That is where the scattering comes from.

Theoretically, if we were able to move the Xenon bulb a bit further into the headlight's reflector, we should be able to correct the problem and get a beautiful cut-off. Renault Laguna is the only car I know that uses this technique and takes Xenon without projectors. It cannot take normal halogen bulbs though.

Bi-Xenon projectors have all the angles correctly calculated for Xenon bulbs.

I am heating up my oven as we speak. (Or as we type)

[geek77]

BLAM !!!

(Painting it black tomorrow)

[sendler2112]

Sendler, the halogen bulb has the filament positioned closer to the end of the bulb, while the gas bubble with the Xenon arc is precisely in the center of the bulb.

The HID bulb retrofits from many companies including the DDM tuning bulbs that I have in my CBR250R are now designed specifically for each application so that the light source is in exactly the same spot as the halogen they replace. You don't just order "an HID bulb" as it was in the early days when HID's got their bad name. You order an "H7 HID bulb" or whatever matches what you took out so the fire is in the same place.
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There is now even an HS5 HID kit with high low solenoid for the PCX on ebay. But it is an off brand and only available in 6,000k so I will wait. The DDM V3 projectors are out and throw an awesome pattern but it too much work to get them in and get them tuned for me to bother with.
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http://www.ddmtuning.com/Products/Projectors-H1-V3-Pair
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[djcat]

Sendler,

What you give us in your last post is a website from a vendor who wants to sell his products. Of course (as he wants to sell his products) he will not tell you the bad bits. Plus, the fact that he is allowed to sell the stuff does not mean that it is legal for use on the public road. Even in highly regulated countries like the UK or Germany you can buy stuff that is technically just for show or off road purposes (e.g. 100W halogen bulbs, HID kits, spray that blacks out lights, 90% window tint film...shall I go on?).

Fact is that the first of your official documents that tested retrofit HIDs said that with it installed, it failed all US standards! Please see the screenshot I attached.

My wife nearly hit a ditch in the countryside because some a*sehole blinded her! Once you are a passenger in a car and see the effects on the driver (who might not be as technically versed or know where to look at but just a housewife trying to get her kids from A to B), you will loose all sympathy with whoever uses blinding devices in traffic.

[geek77]

I checked their website and I cannot find anything different from the usual Xenon stuff.
The shape is the same, they have the full range of bulbs. Of course you would order a H7 bulb (to replace a H7 halogen) but the Xenon arc would still be in the center.
I do not recall the times when "Xenon bulb" was the same size for all. I believe it has always been like this - all sizes for all specific replacements.
That does not move the bubble any closer to the end of the lamp. It just makes it easy to screw in.

Could you maybe show the cut-off line of your bike? Or take a picture from the front, with your lights on? Thanks!

(I will do the same with these projectors for comparison)

[sendler2112]

blinding devices in traffic.

Of course there have been many poorly implemented HID conversions by tuner kids. They should be ticketed off of the road. That is why I recommend well engineered kits that maintain the correct pattern.
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Stock headlights in motorcycles are woefully inadequate and are relegated to barely half the power consumption of what a halogen car legally gets. Why? We get 60 Watts for low beams and cars get 110. Why? And a car with factory HID's has twice the light of a halogen car and 3-6 times the light output of any halogen motorcycle. Why? We ride on the same roads and endure more difficulties and hazards. Give me some adequate light to begin with and I will leave it alone.
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And give me some modern ultra white light. Motorcycles get slammed into more often. Why? Because car drivers don't see us. Ultra white running lights are vastly more conspicuous than 2,700k halogens. These new lights are one of the biggest safety advances ever to reduce driver error collisions and are now a major selling factor on every new above entry level car. I don't want to get hit. Put some white light on your bike. Hurry, before you get hit.

[sendler2112]

That does not move the bubble any closer to the end of the lamp.

Why are you hung up on if the light source is at the end of the lamp? What matters is that the light source is in the same place relative to the reflector as the light source of the halogen bulb you took out.
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I guess you didn't see this beam shot I posted a few posts up.
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The new bi-shutter projector kits are really nice though. Maybe it is not so hard after all. How do they mount to the stock reflector? And can you tune the aiming and then lock them down before gluing the cover back on?

[geek77]

Yes we are just calling it differently.
The Xenon light source is not in the same place as the halogen bulb, if you just put an H7 HID kit into a reflector made for halogen.
That is why all the light on this photo is scattered all over the place, and there is no cut-off line at all. That means your light does scatter and it is blinding for oncoming traffic. That is most dangerous to yourself. Of course it's a FAIL for inspection.
This picture shows why I am insisting on the position of the HID vs Halogen, if used in halogen reflector.



Xenon with a proper projector would not blind anyone above their waist (or so), because the light is actually cut-off, blocked from going any higher. Here is an example of a picture as close to yours as possible. The difference is undeniable.

[geek77]

Yeah these projectors are pretty cheap and they are universal. They come with adapters for H7 reflectors.
Just open the headlight, pass through the orifice made for the bulb, and tighten with a screw behind it.
Xenon bulb used in these universal projectors is H1 (because of the size). You would need the projectors and new Xenon H1 bulbs for your already existing HID kit.
You don't need to point them down, the leveling feature of your headlight will not be lost.

Here they are, check them out:

[iceman]

Perhaps a reason for lower wattage on bikes may be due to the smaller battery AH's and alternator? The battery is much smaller than the lead acid battery in a car. Off the top of my head I can't remember, but is the PCX 7AH and a car bat maybe 60AH?

[djcat]

blinding devices in traffic.

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Stock headlights in motorcycles are woefully inadequate and are relegated to barely half the power consumption of what a halogen car legally gets. Why? We get 60 Watts for low beams and cars get 110. Why? And a car with factory HID's has twice the light of a halogen car and 3-6 times the light output of any halogen motorcycle. Why? We ride on the same roads and endure more difficulties and hazards. Give me some adequate light to begin with and I will leave it alone.
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And give me some modern ultra white light. Motorcycles get slammed into more often. Why? Because car drivers don't see us.

Sendler,

I don´t think your logic is correct. More WATTS alone does not mean better light output or higher probability of being seen. I had a car (Alfa Romeo Mito) with two projector H7 low beam bulbs and two additional H7 high beams (220W in total), supposedly better then "do it all" H4 bulbs - however the light beam was worse then the H4 double bulb headlight of my Honda XL1000 Varadero. Furthermore, there are plenty of bikes that do have at least two low beam headlight bulbs from factory - hence the same light W output as cars. I owned one of them until very recently (the Honda).

Examples are Suzuki V-Strom, Triumph Street Triple and Honda XL 1000 Varadero. A single headlight on a motorcycle is NOT a conspiracy against bikes, its just engineering and you have the choice to purchase a bike with two headlight bulbs if you like. The quality of headlights varies from vehicle to vehicle, it is one of the things I look at when buying mine.

Bikes have a slim profile by nature, that is why we can filter through traffic and not bother much about parking and keep a bike in a garage in addition to our cars, lawnmowers, etc. The downside of that is that 90% of people don´t realise we are there and for a number of reasons that have been explained extensively on this forum and many others.

Simply adding glare to your headlight does not help a tin box driver to judge its distance to you, to the contrary its a lot more difficult to judge the distance towards a single glaring light then e.g. towards two distant points like e.g. two car headlights due to angular movement.

Visibility is a matter of contrast, of shape, of colour. There are plenty of ways to make yourself more visible, you can for example add two bullet lights that don´t glare anybody but give others a better chance to judge your speed and distance without glaring them. Its that "train like look" , a triangle of three light sources, that will greatly increase your presence.

I understand your worry about not being seen, I have it myself every time I am on a bike. I ride as if I am invisible despite positioning myself in ways that helps others to see me and keeping it to the speed limit so nobody can say I was just too fast to stop when they cut me off. Many times I had to slam the anchor, despite using my headlight, high viz gear and yellow (road legal) bulbs. Its just the nature of the beast and if you don´t know you need to be able to stop at any time, don´t ride.

[djcat]

blinding devices in traffic.

And give me some modern ultra white light. Motorcycles get slammed into more often. Why? Because car drivers don't see us. Ultra white running lights are vastly more conspicuous than 2,700k halogens. These new lights are one of the biggest safety advances ever to reduce driver error collisions and are now a major selling factor on every new above entry level car. I don't want to get hit. Put some white light on your bike. Hurry, before you get hit.

Sendler,

Re-reading your reply, I noticed I didn´t address your argument about HIDs in cars as a selling factor. Well, at least here in the EU, factory fitted HIDs are very different from aftermarket ones. They need to have:

- Headlight washers
- Automatic levellers
- Reflectors made to have the focal point of light output at the required point to not glare others.

This is totally different from just slamming an HID aftermarket kit into Halogen bulb reflectors.

Plus, HIDs are not a guarantee to bee seen, have a look at the picture of the Suzuki V-Strom in the link I will paste below, one side is a projector HID conversion, the other side the factory fitted halogen bulb. Its clear to see that the vastly greater illuminated area is much more visible then the projector lens. I can also not see any difference between my friend´s Mercedes CLK with factory fitted HIDs towards my own Saab´s H7 headlamps. To say in fact, my car´s headlights are more visible.

Plus, I was also cut off more often then once in my car. You can light up as a Christmas tree if you like, there will always be people that don´t look, are distracted or just on drugs...

The link:

http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php?topic=19485.0