running great - then engine just died -

[GeeGusKahn]

Hay Fish
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thank you.
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Sean

[GeeGusKahn]

OK, I have made a couple of decisions after some deep thought.
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For the time being, due to every other Monday being chemo day,
I have decided that reliability has a higher priority than super speed.
I ride my scooter to clinic because I really enjoy the ride.

So

I have pulled the Dr.P variator, Advance Pro driven plate, etc, etc.
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I have reinstalled the OEM variator with 12 g Dr.P sliders, an NCY driven plate, and a new OEM belt.
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Quick test ride around town and then out in sticks and home again surprised me.
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Scooter ran great.
It actually felt quicker for acceleration than with all that other stuff.
I was not pushing it and topped out at about 65 mph on GPS.
That included a sum what steep uphill of maybe a 1/4 mile and it pulled it just fine.
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Monday I will have about a 30 mile run up to the clinic and back.
Nice easy country road with a few steep uphill and down hill sections.
Depending how I feel on Monday evening I will probably add to this.
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Sean

[waspmike]

Sean,

What is the difference between the Advance Pro and NCY drive plates?

[GeeGusKahn]

Sean,

What is the difference between the Advance Pro and NCY drive plates?

Hay Mike,
let's start with Honda OEM and work from there.
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These are things that I actually have and have measured.
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Drive face.
117 mm diameter w/ 15 degree slope = PCX OEM drive face.
117 mm diameter w/ 14 degree slope = NCY drive face.
121 mm diameter w/ 14 degree slope = Advance Pro drive face.

Variators.
117 mm diameter w/ 15 degree slope = PCX OEM variator
121 mm diameter w/ 14 degree slope = Dr.Pulley variator.
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Theoretically - you remember theoretically - right up there next to definite maybe or maybe maybe.
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You should be able to get more belt travel with larger diameter giving more top speed.
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The difference in the slope should equate to faster acceleration.
Steeper slope, 14 degrees should be faster acceleration than the 15 degree slope.
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All this is based on rollers and not sliders.
I am wondering - gets me into trouble every time -
if Dr.Pulley variator was designed with rollers in mind and / or before sliders were invented.
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Sean
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[waspmike]

I don't have experience with belts as such, well a little bit on V belts, but just wondering if because your Dr. Pulley/Advance pro combination needs in theory a belt which is 6.5mm longer. It may not be as simple as that but... Maybe the belt just won't travel to the full extent of the pulley. Or was under additional stress at the time of the failure.
Then again at idle the extra diameter doesn't do anything so it would seem that the extra diameter of the larger drive face would need to be balanced by a larger diameter clutch pulley unless, as designed, there is extra travel available to accommodate the extra length of the belt. That you would only know by doing the magic marker trick on the driven pulley as well.

Belt info seems like hen's teeth even if one downloads a manufacturers catalogue the actual dimensions of the belts are not given.

PS it is almost time to go to the local bar to watch the MotoGP Let's see if Vinales can do better than 7th?

[GeeGusKahn]

I don't have experience with belts as such, well a little bit on V belts, but just wondering if because your Dr. Pulley/Advance pro combination needs in theory a belt which is 6.5mm longer. It may not be as simple as that but... Maybe the belt just won't travel to the full extent of the pulley. Or was under additional stress at the time of the failure.
That you would only know by doing the magic marker trick on the driven pulley as well.

Oh no Mr Bill, are we talking "in theory".
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Any time I have changed any of the components in the CVT, I have always done the marker trick.
After a ten mile or so test ride, both in town and WOT h'way, I will pull the cover and inspect my marks.
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On the combo of Dr.P variator and the Advance Pro plate, both 121 mm diameter,
regardless of any other factors, marks were completely gone every time.
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Since I have now reinstalled the OEM variator and the NCY plate, both being 117 mm diameter,
I have the tiniest bit of mark left, maybe 0.5 mm or less at the top edge.
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So on the first part, I would not change belt length unless the mfg of variator had a recommendation to change it.
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Sean
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[waspmike]

I was wondering about the marker test on the clutch pulley. Maybe that is what you said. As I don't know the diameter of the driven pulley.

[GeeGusKahn]

I was wondering about the marker test on the clutch pulley. Maybe that is what you said. As I don't know the diameter of the driven pulley.

Mike
I have never measured or marked the clutch pulley assemble.
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Next time I have it apart I will measure and do the marker test.
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Sean
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[waspmike]

Sean,
As you say this is theoretical. PCXdemon will probably tell us that all this additional diameter does not effect
belt tension.

Another thing. your bike only has 3000kms? How old is it? The other crack in the belt which must have come from somewhere.

[waspmike]

From Bred on a different forum I just read that a CVT belt used was 5mm (910mm to 915mm) longer than when new so maybe the 6.5 that you need is irrelevant to your catastrophe?

[OldGuy]

This was a really good discussion, thanks everyone especially GeeGuss. Makes me just want to leave my slower 2015 pcx stock. Maybe 62 or 63 is fast enough. Got almost 2500 miles on it now.
DIYers, was any valve lash adjustment needed at 2500?

[you you]

This was a really good discussion, thanks everyone especially GeeGuss. Makes me just want to leave my slower 2015 pcx stock. Maybe 62 or 63 is fast enough. Got almost 2500 miles on it now.
DIYers, was any valve lash adjustment needed at 2500?

No

[GeeGusKahn]

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[quote="waspmike"]: ? I can still see a crack in the belt.[/quote]
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I am ready to express my final opinion on this very interesting debacle.
Unless something else comes to light.

The belt broke first and caused this.
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01 torn-busted belt 1 324k.jpg (100.92 KiB) Viewed 1317 times

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01 torn-busted belt 2 324k .jpg (132.54 KiB) Viewed 1317 times

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If we examine these two photos we can clearly see the grove in the right hand section of belt where the movable pulley got a hold of it.
On the left hand section of belt, there is no mark at all matching the pulley.
Also, we have the visual crack one cog over from the split.
So, I would go with the following.
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Zipping along at fifty to fifty five mph, the belt broke.
Normally the belt would just let go and we would have a running engine with no output to the rear wheel.
In this case, no such luck - and hence the confusion over possible causes.
Belt broke and due to timing - a split second sooner or later would probably change the outcome.
Forward section of belt to your left broke loose and simply flipped around pulley and fell to bottom of CVT case.
This of course unloaded the torque driver pulley allowing the clutch to drop out.
This all probably happen in a milly second or so. This is likely why I felt no shudder or hiccup from back wheel.
The section with the grove in it - when the belt snapped, it happened in such a way as that section of belt moved to its right.
The variator movable plate was able to grab it due to speed and location and drag it up against the top of case.
This of course jammed the pulley and stopped the motor.
Maddie asked if there were any rub or wear marks on variator case - there were not.
No marks would indicate that this was a sudden failure and not something that built over a period of time.
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Now to address a few other issues.
At this point I exonerate the Dr.Pulley variator and the Advance Pro Plate from any blame.
Given any variator, plate, rollers or sliders - and the exact set of circumstances - I believe the results would be exactly the same.
The sliders coming out from behind the ramp plate was probable caused by my adding the extra 1 mm of shims and
from the sudden stop from say 8000 rpm to 0 rpm of the variator in that milly secound.
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If you feel like experimenting with different variators and drive plates - do it.
We did not get to the moon by sitting around saying that it was not a good idea or could not be done.
Someone had to think outside the box and take action on those ideas.
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Final thought on this based on the following.
My scoot is 2013 purchased new around March of 2014 from dealer.
Scoot how has about 3000 miles on it.
So if you have a PCX from that general time period and mileage, I would take a few minutes to just check the belt for similar cracks.
I believe this could be an issue with both the 125 and the 150s from around the world.
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I have seen production managers and supervisors take shortcuts and or ignore problems to make their quota and bonus or whatever.

This is just an opinion of mine and is not based on any secret knowledge of how Honda runs its assembly plants.
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Let's say they got a shipment of a 1000 defective belts from normally reliable vendor at the assemble plant - no in house QC is done.
And let's say that they were running 4 production lines.
One line for 125s going to countries with A1 or similar license restrictions.
One line of 150s for North America or any place that has kill switch and not idle stop.
Two lines of 150s for the rest of the world as this is there biggest market.
Each line running at same speed, each line gets 250 defective belts.
Guess what, those belts are spread all over the world so no big notice.
Some belts brake in normal fashion and no big problem, just replace belt.
Problem like mine might not happen to anyone else in the whole wide world.
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Those of you who would burn me at the stake for even suggesting that Honda would let this happen
just think of all the millions of cars that are being recalled by almost every manufacture.
Many of those defects have caused deaths and/or serious injuries.
This includes American, Japanese, German, Italian, etc auto manufactures.
So all I can say is don't ever say they could not or would not ignore defects.
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These are my thoughts and I hope they are of value to someone and anyone.
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Would I buy another PCX or a maybe a Forza, yes.
Would I buy another Burgman, Kymco, Yamaha or whatever, absoluteley.
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If you have read through this entire thread - kudos on your endurance.
If you have not - 40 lashes with a wet noodle - and go back to the beginning and start reading.
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thank you
Sean
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[OldGuy]

wish there was a LIKE button.

[you you]

wish there was a LIKE button.

For quality or quality, or just plain old entertainment

[waspmike]

wish there was a LIKE button.

Obviously not that old? Or too old?

No we don't need to LIKE stuff. If we do we say so or contribute.

[GeeGusKahn]

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wish there was a LIKE button.

There is, and you pushed it.
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I am not into facebook or any of the other social media things.
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I do use e_mail a fair amount but that is directed at specific people and not the world at large.
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Just hearing from other forum members with any thoughts, ideas, or opionions on the subject works for me.
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thanks
Sean