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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:28 am 
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Rather than discuss cup holders and cell phone brackets, I've been eagerly anticipating Gav's BBK upgrade thread, oh for about 4 months now. Anyone else like to sign the petition to get Gav off his fat bum and proceed with the project, after all, didn't he complain to his parts suppliers that things were taking too long, or was that someone else, months ago ..right Gav ;)
Love, Apache :)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:37 am 
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Hey Frank,

This weekend should see all the induction mods and fuel controller installed and tuned if all goes to plan.
Leading up to this I've tried to get all the preparation work done to lay the foundation for the power mods.
Some things have worked first go and I've been happy while a couple other things I revisited to improve upon.
Because I wanted to do the tuning myself without a dyno, it was important to have an UEGO/AFR and tacho.

This Stage 2 tuning for the induction mods may last a couple of months before I finish Stage 3 with the BBK/cam.
I know some people might be very interested to know what just Stage 2 will achieve, since it's rather affordable.
The best thing is I will be able to share my tune for the Dobeck EJK with other potential modders as a base map.
This way people won't need to buy an UEGO/AFR kit. This will be my way of giving back to the modding community.

Some day after Stage 3, there will probably be a Stage 3.5 for a 35mm throttle body, thin gasket and Yuminashi cam? Or maybe just go 200cc?
The last thing that will be done are the Rothmans decals that I've had since last June, but I don't want to put them on and then damage a panel.
I've got a spare set of stock black 14" PCX wheels waiting to be powder coated Rothmans gold after I've applied the decals. Then it's done.

I know it's been a long slog, but I only get to ride on weekends, or I can work on the scooter or work around the house.
I had a health setback last year for a couple of months, and in addition to that I'm a carer for two family members.
So, I'm as keen as the next guy to see my red list shifted into the blue list and finally share my vision with everyone.
But I know some of you can't wait, so it looks like this weekend I'll have to dust off the camera and start a build log.

A quick note to those who don't understand: I bought the PCX as my hobby/toy/therapy for the purpose of modding.
So yeah, I could've bought a bigger scooter, of heaven forbid - "a real bike". But I've worked for this, and it makes me smile.
Once I'm essentially finished Stage 3 on the PCX, the will be a real bike in my future. I've been dropping enough hints, no?

Thanks for the motivation, Frank. Complaining about slow parts suppliers? That doesn't sound like me! :P
Long time, Gav.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:57 am 
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Yay!
And like you say, the best thing for us 'onlookers' is we can all learn from your guinea pigging for us and pick the most cost effective option that works for us personally. I've been looking at the ebay 170/175cc kit from Taiwan, but dont want to have to add a ton of other mods to get it to 'put out' if that's possible. Neither do I want to see a huge impact on mpg. Looking forward with interest to the updates, and what works and what isnt worth the expense. Good luck with the project.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:18 am 
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That Dobcheck sounds interesting, and it comes with baseline tune for aftermarket filter and performance exhaust (stage 1). It would be even be interesting to see any gains with stage 1 and just the Dobcheck. Is the EJK PCX specific, does it plug and play with the OEM ECU?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:35 am 
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I got the cheap "eBay" 175cc kit since that was the biggest available at the time.
Yuminashi have since released their 175cc kit, which is vastly more expensive...
But Yuminashi have a nicer piston design with windage cutouts and higher compression gasket.
I got lucky with a domed Yuminashi piston, so my compression might be like stock Yumi' BBK?

The Dobeck is designed for the 125's A type fuel injector, and intercepts between the injector harness only.
Luckily I had already opted for the 6 holes A type injector with Yuminashi A>B injector loom, so it all works.
Because the Dobeck EJK will let me run two AFR ranges, I could maintain stoich AFR for cruising economy.
I will most likely initially tune a bit rich for power for the Stage 2 mods since they only make power that way...
When Stage 3 is done, I can lay off the AFR a bit to improve cruising economy and keep it mental above 7500+.

If I didn't need the A type fuel injector to use the Dobeck, I would try a tune with just the Stage 1 mods currently.
If you're prepared to just do an injector conversion without 31mm IM and TB like I've doing, it's fairly cheap I guess.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:33 am 
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Today I just got out the tester light and fixed the wiring for my AFR gauge, so it's not going spastic anymore.
Then I did some test riding with the Stage 1 mods to see what AFR the stock ECM is doing in closed/open loop.
Cold start idle is about 12.5:1. Closed loop is in the 14s, aiming for stoich. Open loop (80%+ throttle) is roughly 12:1.

Based on these results I cannot recommend a fuel controller for only Stage 1 mods. IE: panel/air filter and exhaust.
Since it's easy to do, I want to see what AFR the stock ECM will do with the 31mm IM+TB and a 45mm foam pod filter.
I'm guessing in open loop the AFR will shift into the 13s, but I'm not sure what will happen in closed loop.
Then again, I'm installing a bigger injector too, so it might go even richer despite the extra oxygen being taken in?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:44 am 
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AFR being Air/Fuel ratio. ECM being Electronic control module. TB being throttle body. But IM, open loop, closed loop?
Might need a glossary to follow the thread. So you're saying those with performance air filter and exhaust dont need to tune further with AFR as the stock management and the stock TB can cope just fine?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:05 am 
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IM = Intake Manifold. MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure. TPS = Throttle Position Sensor. EGO = Exhaust Gas Oxygen.
Closed loop is where the ECM controls the AFR based off feedback from the (U)EGO/o2 sensor (14.64:1 in this case).
Open loop is where the ECM goes balls to the wall or delivers a predetermined amount of fuel based off MAP and TPS.

Yep, for me the stock ECM is running in the 14s up to 80% throttle and then getting between 11.8-12.2:1 beyond that.
You could target 13.X:1 with a fuel controller, but it's not like there's a sudden spike in power transitioning to open loop with Stage 1 mods.
When I have the bigger fuel injector and 31mm intake parts installed tomorrow, I will be pushing it down into the 13s below 7000-7500RPM.
The reason I'm doing this is because I sort of need to to make most out of my Stage 2 mods. But I also want to see how the stock ECM reacts.

Based on what I'm experiencing, that ThailandPCX guy (Russ) was off his rocker talking up the power increase from his power commander...
I think maybe he installed the exhaust at the same time as the power commander and noticed that power, or maybe it was all just placebo?
But for me and my weight, conditions, etc, I can feel nothing going from mid to high 14s straight to 12:1 AFR the moment open loop engages.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:31 am 
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Makes sense, in all fairness no matter what we do with AFR's with a 150cc engine it's going to be subtle at best, its not like an exhaust and air filter add up to a whole lot with such a small single cylinder engine. The interesting bit will be the addition of the BBK, though I would have liked to see it mated with the stock TB and just the aftermarket Air/exhaust mods 1st as a baseline, and to see if there's any chance of a too lean condition according to your AFR gauge. Also to see if the TB/bigger injector add up to much in view of the extra expense when you get around to mating them with the BBK, but Since you have the other stuff I doubt you'll be going that route 1st?
..So your going to try the bigger TB on the stock cylinder, should be interesting. I doubt though you'll see any benefits there, do you?
By the time you're done you'll be a cornucopia of tuning info for this scooter with all possible variations of stock and aftermarket parts, the definitive source.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:00 am 
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I can't accommodate every configuration for everyone else's benefit unfortunately.
But I managed to get the AFR values today for the Stage 1 that you were interested in.

I can't actually run the stock IM+TB with my BBK since I don't have an A type injector joint set, but rather an A type 31mm manifold set.
The difference being one is just for an injector conversion and the other replaces both the injector and the manifold for a matched pair.
So basically I'm doing the typical Stage 1, and then my specific Stage 2 and 3 builds. I think you'll find enough dyno charts of BBK only...
If Stage 2 is successful for me, it might encourage more people to do easy bolt-on power mods without ever needing to cut a single wire.

Anyhow, there is still a chance I will suffer the dreaded lean condition once the BBK is installed. The Dobeck may or may not overcome that?
As for power gains, I noticed the difference from just the exhaust after putting the stock one back on temporarily. Give it a try some time.
I expect at least a similar power gain from the 31m IM+TB. The bigger injector just supports other mods with any additional fuelling as needed.
I can always cheat a little and put the 11g sliders back in with the high performance clutch I have. That'll push me up into the powerband quicker.
Actually, that may even be necessary, since the engine might be a little over-aspirated forcing the powerband up higher requiring lighter sliders?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Sorry I went AWOL, Had to go to work. Well you're off to a pretty good start i'd say. Thanks for the info on stage 1, least we dont have to fear holing a piston. Well keep us posted on the stage 2 mods, I might even go BBK sometime in the future so all this is pretty valuable info, cheers :)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:13 am 
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So, the CBR150R injector with 31mm IM+TB are installed with stock ECM, but I have a problem.
The bracket for the throttle cable on the TB is all wrong. Wrong angle and offset, hole too small...
At first when my cable was too big to pass through, I just drilled the hole out bigger, but it's more than that.
Oh well, I'll work something out through the week.

Anyhow, stock ECM cold start idle AFR was in the 11s, and when warmed up it went back to stoich.
It's hard to tell without test riding it, but quickly blipping the throttle past 80% shows AFR in the 10s and 11s.
This is hardly accurate, as there is no load on the engine, and you need to hold the revs steady for accuracy.

The sound! Oh bloody hell, the sound. With the foam pod filter it is quite coarse and raspy with a sense of urgency.
I also removed the bracket for the PCV and fuel lines since it was just getting in the way now with the custom bits.
I've attached some pics below. I had to rotate the pod filter to clear the cable guides on the right side of the scoot.


Attachments:
2017-02-26 13.14.32.jpg
2017-02-26 13.14.32.jpg [ 187.79 KiB | Viewed 883 times ]
2017-02-26 15.44.13.jpg
2017-02-26 15.44.13.jpg [ 395.13 KiB | Viewed 883 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:50 pm 
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BTW people, I'm using an older style CBR125R TB, the newer CBR125/150R TBs have the correct throttle stay that just needs to be drilled bigger.
Regardless, for the grief I'm going through I regret trying to save a few dollars and not buying the Yuminashi TB that comes already prepared... :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:27 pm 
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chicaboo wrote:
BTW people, I'm using an older style CBR125R TB, the newer CBR125/150R TBs have the correct throttle stay that just needs to be drilled bigger.
Regardless, for the grief I'm going through I regret trying to save a few dollars and not buying the Yuminashi TB that comes already prepared... :roll:


Does the yuminashi have an injector and everything good to go, or is that more dicking about figuring what you need to have?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:42 pm 
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No dicking, you buy the Yuminashi 31mm TB, and then choose the injector and manifold or adaptor combination that you want.
You have a great deal of flexibility the way Yuminashi packages everything. But I got my CBR150R injector MUCH cheaper from Asia.
The dicking around for me was getting a CBR TB with sensors, blocking the injection port, and $100AUD later, it still needs more work.

For $170AUD I could've got the Yuminashi 31mm TB which has already been ported, closed and ground to use your existing sensors, with a modded stay.
That $70 saving is less than the time I've already invested and I still have more work to do to resolve the issue I currently have. And it looks old and used...
In hindsight, I'm happy with Yuminashi's pricing/parts structure. Except they overcharge on the injector, which I recommend to hunt around for a better deal.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:17 pm 
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chicaboo wrote:
No dicking, you buy the Yuminashi 31mm TB, and then choose the injector and manifold or adaptor combination that you want.
You have a great deal of flexibility the way Yuminashi packages everything. But I got my CBR150R injector MUCH cheaper from Asia.
The dicking around for me was getting a CBR TB with sensors, blocking the injection port, and $100AUD later, it still needs more work.

For $170AUD I could've got the Yuminashi 31mm TB which has already been ported, closed and ground to use your existing sensors, with a modded stay.
That $70 saving is less than the time I've already invested and I still have more work to do to resolve the issue I currently have. And it looks old and used...
In hindsight, I'm happy with Yuminashi's pricing/parts structure. Except they overcharge on the injector, which I recommend to hunt around for a better deal.


Well thanks to you we'll soon know which injector/manifold/adapter to choose right, or at least based upon your experience what you'd choose? That's what I meant by dicking, I just dont want to do it, or do as little of it as possible lol. Basically I want a bolt on TB and if I need it (?) a manifold with the right injector for a 170 BBK. Sorry for my naivete on this matter, but since this is a future upgrade I havent yet had the inclination to research it myself. I'll send you a gift on completion of your hard work and mental gymnastics on behalf of everyone here who's interested. I've already learned a bit on the subject by following your progress and observations, but coming from the Carburreted world it takes time to sink in lamentably.

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Last edited by k2apache6.0 on Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:27 pm 
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You don't say? :P


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:28 pm 
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chicaboo wrote:
You don't say? :P


Hehehehe :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:42 pm 
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To go with the 175cc CM BBK from Taiwan, you typically need the 16450-KPP-T01 injector and Yuminashi injector joint kit with A>B wiring harness.
This way you are off and running, and if you need to muck around with your fuel, you can add a fuel controller based on what my research finds.
If you add the Yuminashi 31/35mm TB later, you would probably get the Yuminashi 31mm B type manifold since you already have the joint kit above.
From there you can go crazy with cams, pistons, etc. The world is your oyster. Just don't get the 170cc kit when you have the option of the 175cc kit.

Thanks for the generosity. I'll be sharing the love with my tune from the BBK, my general hardships, and something else I've been holding out on.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:50 pm 
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I guess I'm too mentally lazy to 'choose' my parts. I just want them (yuminashi) to have done all that for me already, just send me the whole part, TB, Manifold, and whatever else, already researched, just bolt it on and go lol. If I get about 3 more horses with a fairly flat power delivery I'll be happy. I know I'll probably need the Kitaco gear up kit too to get any more topend speed, I take it you've already aquired one of those? I definately dont want to have to buy AFR meters and such, stuff I'll likely never use again. Probably all I'd likely do is have it dyno'd on completion and overlay the graph onto the stock 150 graph. Hopefully it won't lose anywhere and gain most places, especially after about 6,000 rpm in view of the Yoshi pipe I already have. In that other thread the guy who just did a BBK for someone said the guy said he wanted ,smooth'. That represents my attitude pretty well too. Smooth and safe (for the engine) with good fuel metering.

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