Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

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ThailandPCX
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by ThailandPCX »

Hello Chicaboo,

Well maybe (like I have done numerous times)

Remove your DFA unit and all your handmade made fuel control stuff...

because I understand... your stuff already does actually what the Wideband 2 does...

But... the Wideband 2 is better.. better quality... better performance... and IMPORTANT.. monitors and controls your AFR...!!!

And throw your DFA into the trash can... and say "Lesson Learned"...

and let the Wideband 2 do everything for you... 1 single unit... and AFR control through the programmable O2 sensor... and Dynojet - PowerCommander QUALITY..!!!

Hang you DFA unit on the wall and use it as a dart board...
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by chicaboo »

ThailandPCX wrote:Hello Oyabum....

certainly.... I will be happy to comment on the Bazzaz and Dilts Japan.... Dilts Japan from Webike Japan - right....?

first I must apologize to Dilts Japan Engineers... because what in the 'hell' were you Japs thinking...

My Dilts Japan... had one - installed one - un-stalled on - and can say (if possible) 200% JUNK... Dilts Japan is NOT a map unit at all... does not monitor the AFR so how can you even begin to set-up Dilts... Dilts map graph is even stupid as shit... 'Y" axis is TPS and 'X' axis is RPM... Well, Dilts - where in the heck is your AFR... and Dilts does not have a set-point... Nothing to get your starter.... and there means of Fuel Control.. like I said... How - when the unit is not geared towards monitoring - adjusting your AFR... there means of adjustment is in microseconds... you can adjust how long your injector will stay open.... and if this isn't bad enough for you... their range is like 300 microseconds to like 2,000 microseconds... well - again with No means to control your AFR with the Dilts... where in the heck to you start... 500 microseconds or 800 microseconds or 1,500 mircoseconds..??? So... Dilts was my first $12,000 baht mistake... lost my ass on that one...

Sure - I can also comment on the BAZZAZ... first.. try to contact BAZZAZ... try to get any form of "Customer Service"... I tried for months to talk with somebody... and I tried all 3 ways... (1) email - No Response.... (2) left a customer support ticket through their website - No Respose... (3) left a message on their YouTube video - No Response... So BAZZAZ - Kiss my Lilly White #$*^(^@#... because to me... 100% Good Customer Support is a "Requirement"... so, BAZZAZ- No Response - No Sale - No Buy
I've not seen a Dilts unit before, but what by you describe is very typical of an aftermarket engine management fuel controller. I can't imagine the Bazzaz unit is much different to that either. Bazzaz have an auto tune module with a built in wideband EGO to self tune, but on a much more advanced level than the Dynojet Wideband 2, as it controls the fuel delivery and injector duty cycle at set intervals in open loop. It probably manages closed loop operation in the same fashion that the Wideband 2 does, but that it just my speculation.

Basically you need to tune these fuel controllers on a dyno with a permanent or temporary AFR gauge hooked up for feedback during the tuning session. If you don't install an AFR gauge to the exhaust like you have, they tend to use a MoTec sniffer clamped into the back of the exhaust, which in my experience with car tuning is just as accurate as a wideband EGO bung welded in 12" from the exhaust port.

My hand made DFA kit isn't as polished as the Wideband 2 sounds, but it can actually do complete fuel tuning also under certain conditions. I'm not sure if it can do full fuel control tuning with just a TPS, I need to look into that. But the only real drawback with it is you need the wideband EGO purchased separately, and once you have that it more or less let's you do a road tune of the narrowband EGO without the need for a dyno.

Actually, most standalone engine management systems require the wideband EGO to run in parallel as a separate monitoring and tuning tool. It is less common for it to be integrated like it is with the Wideband 2 and self auto tune units on the market.

If you want even more peak power on the scooter through the full range of throttle, a full dyno tuned standalone piggyback ECU is the only way to go. But it's very expensive... Given this, I can see the merit in BPT using a carbie conversion for the most performance at an affordable price. To me, that could still benefit from a wideband EGO to monitor the AFR for best results.
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by relic »

I think you've gone over my head
Will say have used a simple program know as Power Spec made available through Cummins to play with the ecm on
15 litre diesel through a data link tool
Allowed me to choose performance levels and fuel economy-just for fun I tried the option with most performance
scared me so I turned the truck back into a pumpkin
now if all manufacturers were so willing to unleash the power of their ECM's wouldn't that be nice
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by chicaboo »

Link to Bazzaz Z-Scoot F370 instructions:
https://bazzaz.net/instructions/F370i.pdf
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by ThailandPCX »

Chicaboo....

Yes, I am completely familiar with the Bazzaz unit...

I have watched ALL his videos on YouTube....

I have read everything on his website...

Yes, I know the Bazzaz unit inside and out...

I originally wanted the Bazzaz... but price... because certainly you would need the "Self Mapper" too...

and get the handlebar switch...

builds yourself 2 maps... jack-rabbit off the stoplight and a cruising map..

besides the cost...

BAZZAZ "never" answer my question...

But... I am glad...

because I will take Power Commander - DynoJet over top of Bazzaz every time...

But, I have been involved with Power Commander since the early 70's... long before EFI bikes...and Power Commander made "Needle" Kits for carbs...

and I am Very Happy with the Wideband 2.... it holds my AFR at a prefect 13.9... through the entire RPM range...

What else do you want...

here are the wideband 2 adjust points...

and the Wideband 2 is completely programmable...

You can change the switch point setting to 0.97 to get the closed-loop AFR at 14.2. You can change this setting while running.


Lambda

set-point - AFR



1.1 - 16.17


1.09 - 16.023


1.08 - 15.876


1.07 - 15.729


1.06 - 15.582


1.05 - 15.435


1.04 - 15.288


1.03 - 15.141


1.02 - 14.994


1.01 - 14.847


1 - 14.7


0.99 - 14.553


0.98 - 14.406


0.97 - 14.259


0.96 - 14.112


0.95 - 13.965


0.94 - 13.818


0.93 - 13.671


0.92 - 13.524


0.91 - 13.377


0.9 - 13.23

So, with the Wideband 2 you get everything you want... and add the digital gauge and you have the perfect set up...

Unless - you really are going to run in the 1/4 mile race... Open throttle...

Or you are circuit racing... when you are constantly on and off the throttle.... in the turns and need quick exit...

Nothing More you need than the Wideband 2....
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by chicaboo »

But what happens on your AFR gauge when you're at 100% throttle at 100kph+?

I'm not challenging you, I genuinely want to know how the WB2 addresses open loop at full throttle and high speed.
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by homie »

This hurts my head.... lets take a break :D
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by ThailandPCX »

still holding at 13.9 AFR... even 118 kph... right on 13.9 AFR...

that why you might take your DFR and use as a paper weight...

and run WB2
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by chicaboo »

Maybe, will see how I go...
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by Oyabun »

ThailandPCX
I'm happy that you're satisfied with your WB2 and also the customer support of Dynojet. It is a great piece of kit from a good company to back it up.

I still stand beside my previous comments:
- the WB2 fools the stock ECU to hold a richer mixture than stock (which can be also achieved with other WB controllers also)
- it can be only programmed with an expensive external unit but a great fit and forget option
- misses the added fuel for WOT (Wide open throttle) where even the stock unit holds a richer mixture around 13.2.
- which is good for most peeps riding.
Having said the above the WB2 is not a fuel controller. Thus cannot adjust to different throttle openings and RPMs, and does not address WOT and high speed cruise, and also limited to a stock (non-big bore with changed fuel injector) setup. A WB2 or an innovate motorsport wideband controller, combined with a Power commander, a properly tuned DILTS or Bazzaz unit can do that trick. Given that one understands how they are operating and has the right tools (yes, a dyno and a wideband datalogger is a right tool) to do so. Even a Stradivari master violin is useless junk in the hands of an untrained musician. One who is not able to properly read a plug,ThailandPCX
I'm happy that you're satisfied with your WB2 and also the customer support of Dynojet. It is a great piece of kit from a good company to back it up.

I still stand beside my previous comments:
- the WB2 fools the stock ECU to hold a richer mixture than stock (which can be also achieved with other WB controllers also)
- it can be only programmed with an expensive external unit but a great fit and forget option
- misses the added fuel for WOT (Wide open throttle) where even the stock unit holds a richer mixture around 13.2.
- which is good for most peeps riding.
Having said the above the WB2 is not a fuel controller. Thus cannot adjust to different throttle openings and RPMs, and does not address WOT and high speed cruise, and also limited to a stock (non-big bore with changed fuel injector) setup. A WB2 or an innovate motorsport wideband controller, combined with a Power commander, a properly tuned DILTS or Bazzaz unit can do that trick. Given that one understands how they are operating and has the right tools (yes, a dyno and a wideband datalogger is a right tool) to do so. Even a Stradivari masterviolin is useless junk in the hands of an untrained musician. One who is not able to properly read a plug, diagnose an engine and calculate fueling will not be able to properly set up a Carb either.

Whatever you claim the DILTS (and a Bazzaz Z-FI or a Power commander for that matter) is exactly a map unit. It means that it has a map (or matrix) of TPS and RPM ranges and corrects fuel for that map cell. A datalogger or a dyno measures and records AFR readings under certain operation conditions and then the trained operator calculates from the available data (power reading or delta between measured and desired AFR => required fuel delta => fuel injector flow rate => timing correction) and retests after the corrections done. In case one does not have the proper tools, the DILTS can be set up using live cell show mode, where a video record could help capturing the active (RPM vs. TPS) cell, and the actual AFR reading from e.g. a WB2 under different conditions.
It is not rocket science. True that the Bazzaz and the PCV are more intuitive as they also include the data logging functions and provide trim map suggestions to help the operator - but they work in essentially the same manner. Also cost about four times more especially if bought together with a WB and the autotune units.

A very intuitive and easy to setup device for non-trained tuners is the AFRPlus from Dobeck performance. It combines the easy to set up method of a carb (essentially setting target AFRs for riding conditions like idle, light cruise, accel, high speed cruise and WOT) the injector timing of a PCV, the signal interception and AFR display of a WB2. Too bad that it is not available for the PCX and not able to change ignition timing as a Bazzaz or PCV could do. It is cost effective given all the functionality it provides and folks have great success with it on non complicated bikes like Groms, bandits and hornets.

I also already used Dynojet back when they were selling carb kits, but moved to programming quite a lot of different fuel controllers available on the market for the last 15 years. Carbs are soo last century. In case they would make better power - all motoGP teams and F1 would use them.

I suggest you to use relative statements in the future (e.g. I had no luck/knowledge/capacity to properly set up device X.) rather than absolute ones (X thing is crap), especially when the issue is not a malfunction or design fault of a device, but lack of knowledge or experience.

Once again. The WB2 is great, and also works together with a PCV to autotune if needed - but it is not a full solution.

Oyabun out. diagnose an engine will not be able to properly set up a Carb either.

Whatever you claim the DILTS (and a Bazzaz Z-FI or a Power commander for that matter) is exactly a map unit. It means that it has a map (or matrix) of TPS and RPM ranges and corrects fuel for that map cell. A datalogger or a dyno measures and records AFR readings under certain operation conditions and then the trained operator calculates from the available data (power reading or delta between measured and desired AFR => required fuel delta => fuel injector flow rate => timing correction) and retests after the corrections done. In case one does not have the proper tools, the DILTS can be set up using live cell show mode, where a video record could help capturing the active (RPM vs. TPS) cell, and the actual AFR reading from e.g. a WB2 under different conditions.
It is not rocket science. True that the Bazzaz and the PCV are more intuitive as they also include the data logging functions and provide trim map suggestions to help the operator - but they work in essentially the same manner. Also cost about four times more especially if bought together with a WB and the autotune units.

A very intuitive and easy to setup device for non-trained tuners is the AFRPlus from Dobeck performance. It combines the easy to set up method of a carb (essentially setting target AFRs for riding conditions like idle, light cruise, accel, high speed cruise and WOT) the injector timing of a PCV, the signal interception and AFR display of a WB2. Too bad that it is not available for the PCX and not able to change ignition timing as a Bazzaz or PCV could do. It is cost effective given all the functionality it provides and folks have great success with it on non complicated bikes like Groms, bandits and hornets.

I also already used Dynojet back when they were selling carb kits, but moved to programming quite a lot of different fuel controllers available on the market for the last 15 years. Carbs are soo last century. In case they would make better power - all motoGP teams and F1 would use them.

I suggest you to use relative statements in the future (e.g. I had no luck/knowledge/capacity to properly set up device X, or I don't need the complexity and difficulty of setup of a fuel controller for my purposes) rather than absolute ones (X thing is crap), especially when the issue is not a malfunction or design fault of a device, but lack of knowledge or experience.

Once again. The WB2 is great, and most probably the best for your application - but it is not a full solution.

Oyabun out.
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by ThailandPCX »

YES....!!!! the Wideband 2 is Perfect.... Excellent Product... Very High Quality Product... And Award Winning Customer Service... 5 Stars all the way around... and Sure - it will do everything most people want when they bolt on a exhaust and drop in the K&N Air Filter...

Because I am not going extreme with my bolt-on horsepower mods - like Big Bore Kit... Why...?

If I wanted a 170 cc bike... I would have bought one...

and not change a 150 cc engine to a 170 cc engine when the lower end... crank, flywheels, rod, cases and bearing etc... is all design for 150 cc...

I can only comment on my personal experience and how my bike performed without and with the Wideband 2...

before - w/o the Wideband 2 I really wasn't satisfied with my performance... I thought the Ackrapovic Exhaust and K&N Air Filter would have done more... still lacked a nice hole shot away from the stop light... and lacked any top speed gain...

After - Wideband 2... WOW - difference truly was like night and day... WOW... easy roll back on the throttle... WOW... just let keep the AFR about 13.0.... let the engine make ponies... and jack rabbit away from the stop light... and reach top speed - AFR return to 13.8...

And WOW - Top Speed gain... very impressive... at least 4 kph or 5... but.... best thing... is how I got to 118 or 119 kph... my bike just jump to 118 kph...

And the very best... and I think soooooo cool... going up a little incline... crack the throttle open... and accelerate going up hill..!!!! Surely... my bike didn't accelerate going up hill... so, sure... Windband 2 is making more horsepower... and that is what it is really about... making Horsepower...

My Post Here....

Was ONLY to give average riders my insight into an viable option after bolting on a Exhaust System and K&N Air Filter..

Sure... I am NOT going to race track on Sunday...

I am NOT drag racing my bike in the 1/8 mile... or 1/4 mile...

I don't need a 'map' that will handle close throttle to WOT in 6 seconds... 10 seconds...

Sure... I am NOT circuit racing my bike on a closed course...

I don't need a 'map' that will handle on and off the throttle constantly... Off the Throttle to get into the turn... and immediately back On the Throttle coming out of the turn... don't need it...

So, a very expensive - high tech - and spend all my tuning the darn thing... I don't need and don't want it...

My post here was to give an average everyday rider and may to get their AFR into a more horsepower development stage... easy and simple...

The type of devices that you are talking about are great for the race track... where you can build a map that that particular course... and next week... different weather and different course and different elevation.. ... and get there on Wednesday and build another map and hope it doesn't rain on Saturday - race day..

And ""Maps"" are so darn sensitive... what happens when it "Rains" and your map is done all the shit... because you mapped your bike on a hot sunny day...

So,,,, those so called units like Bazzaz are really not practical for ordinary street cruising... really they are designed for the race track...

But... can be used to build yourself a nice little street map and your bike will run ok... but - why... when the Windband 2 will do everything for you...

Where you don't want to fooling around with your bike everyday... and change maps between a rain day and sunny day... and what will happened if you want to ride into the mountains... well - you mapped your bike at Sea Level... now your ride to 1,000 feet above sea level.... what... you stop and get out the self mapper again... and re-map your bike... while all your friends are riding around enjoying themselves...

My Post here was ONLY to give average everyday PCX riders the news about my experience in using the Wideband 2...

Not here all the bullshit about maps... Bazzaz or Dilts Japan... been there and done that already... who cares about big bore kits... if you want a 170 cc little scooter.. buy one... and piggyback my system... who really gives a rats ass...

I can tell you about my experience... if you bolted on a exhaust system and dropped in the K&N Air Filter... and now want to ""Wake Up""" your exhaust and air filter mod... Get your bike running at it's very best possible...

WOW - Wideband 2.... is the way to go..

Thailand PCX out
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by ThailandPCX »

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my bike... installing the Wideband 2
IMG_0835.JPG
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my bike... Amazing PCX in Amazing Thailand
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by chicaboo »

ThailandPCX: Thanks for sharing your experience. It's good to see someone investing their time and money into modding their PCX and sharing the results with the community. It's great that you've had such a positive experience with the WB2, but it is an expensive item at $500 USD with the essential hand controller given its limited tuning capabilities. However, for intake and exhaust mods only, it seems fine at $300 USD with a pre-tuned AFR, and on balance, probably a fair price for what it achieves.

Please don't discount standalone piggyback ECU's that require dyno tuning. They are not so sensitive to minor weather and elevation changes as you suggest (no worse than carbies...). Most better ECU's let you run two maps for say power/economy or summer/winter tunes. You may be surprised to know the Dynojet Power Commander V is tuned in a similar fashion to Bazzaz and Dilts. However, since there is no specific application for the PCX, that's a moot point I guess.

Steady Garage sell the Bazzaz Z-Scoot F370 and Z-AFM auto tune combo for about $530 USD before shipping. Which in contrast to the WB2, is in another league for not so much more expense. Granted you have had poor experiences with their customer support, so I can appreciate your trepidation. But the installation guide for Bazzaz I posted earlier is concise and comprehensive enough that you shouldn't have need their support.
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Re: Fuel Controller - DynoJet Wideband 2...!!!!!

Post by homie »

NICE PICTURES!!!!!
We have a lot of talent in here lately, don't think there is much that can't be sorted out on a PCX these days.... Great work people.
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