ATGATT or Squidding: What do YOU ride with?

[WhiteNoise]

....just looking back, Did I misunderstand you dkazzed?

[dkazzed]

Well you answered what I asked lol. I should've clarified if scooters are more prone to getting into an accident than a bicycle?

I did crash 3 months ago. It hurt like a mofo from the impact and burn, although my cycling grade shell did a good job resisting abrasion. It was in wet weather, I hit the rear brakes too hard locking it up and then went down.

A reasonably fit rider can sustain 25mph on a flat ground on a good road bike. I had a nasty spill when I was 14 when my chain suddenly locked up between gears. slight uphill, barely doing 12mph. I tumbled over the bars, luckily didn't hit my head but landed on my hands and knees and I can tell you that also hurt like a mofo. Everything that hit pavement was gouged and bleeding. But riding a bicycle in anything resembling protection is like being in a rolling sauna.

You won't catch me commuting, riding more than a few miles, riding in wet weather, and especially riding on the freeway without all the gear. But if I need to ride 3/4 of a mile to a supermarket in a quiet neighbourhood to pick up a few groceries or a mile and a half to meet up old coworkers for lunch, I'll just do a helmet, gloves, and usually my boots. And yes, I'm too lazy to walk especially with a few bags of groceries, my bicycle needs a new tube, and my car uses too much gas with a cold engine. But if there's anything more than a light shower, I don't go out or just walk around the office or drive at home. I'm not a huge fan of riding in the rain except when I have to ie commuting.

I'm not like the resident troll who will brush off what you're saying completely. When I can afford it, I will get office suitable trousers that are kevlar lined with removable knee armour that I'll keep in the office otherwise as I'd still wear proper riding pants over it when commuting. But right now I just need to get any riding pants asap. Then I'm going to get a stylish jacket that'll look good whether I'm riding, picking up groceries, or meeting a client. Don't know if I should go with waterproof armoured textile or get a nice leather jacket plus a rain shell. Leather always looks good. The cheapest textile jacket I like is the Alpinestar Gunner and that's $270 and even then I'm lukewarm to the looks. The textile I like the most is the Tucano Urbano Ermes and that's $360US. A River Road hoodlum vintage leather riding jacket is about $315 which I love then spend a little more for riding rain jacket and pants. (All prices Canadian unless noted)

End note, I admit I did ride scooters in shorts and a t-shirt a few times, several in Vietnam with it being 37 to 45C (99 to 113F) with what felt like near 100% humidity. What's stifling hot just sitting still in the shade was a little chilly at 60km/h. My dad had a scooter for a bit and at 25C (77F) it's really cold. So jeans, jacket, and fully enclosed leather gloves at minimum for me thanks.

[dkazzed]

Ugh, reading up on armoured textile vs. leather makes my head hurt.

[you you]

Is riding a scooter at 25 mph inherently more dangerous than riding a bicycle at 25, 30, 35 mph?

Don't upset them with logic. They want to be superior

And yet vulnerable

Bless

[dkazzed]

I don't think anyone should get upset, squidders or ATGATTers. It's just a subjective topic, that's it. *shrugs*

Signed, ATGMOTT

[Monty1952]

Bottom line to the topic - at two big bike shows in Toronto this year so far Personal Injury Lawyers stalls/displays outnumbered bike manufacturers. So as individuals we have the right to make the choice each time we ride and understand the risks and consequences of our actions.

[tbln930]

There were lawyers at the motorcycle show? Too funny. Our annual show was about a month ago and not a lawyer in sight but there were a few of those sport RVs that can haul motorcycles and ATVs in the back. I would think the organizing club who controlled the booths would have locked them out. We had a few related booths like one for conceal carry motorcycle holsters and the "Watch For Motorcycles" folks handing out signs which I picked up.

[Monty1952]

There were lawyers at the motorcycle show? Too funny.

And they had the best looking models in show too! Most were about 6ft tall and 5 of that was legs! Disgusting

[dkazzed]

From the comments I've read from motorcyclists:

1. Squids are idiots, and
2. If you're going to ATGATT, why not get a real bike?

Which is my dilemma when I compare the oh so attractive $3699 Suzuki GW250 vs. the $3899 Honda PCX150. On one hand, if I'm going to ATGATT, then it's tempting to just get a motorcycle that's more capable and fun to ride especially if it costs a couple hundred less and comes with 5 years warranty. On the other hand, scooters still make better grocery getters or errand runners in the neighbourhood or downtown core.

From my observation, scooterists downtown tend to be squids, I feel completely overdressed compared to most of them on my commute home but at the same time my commute home is 5x longer than the average scooterist I'm guessing. With motorcycles starting to come out with the beautiful weather we've been having joining the motorcyclists crazy enough to ride through the entire winter, I feel like I'm fitting in more.

Side notes:

I got a used pair of Alpinestars slip on riding boots, they're oh so easy to put on that I'll have no qualms putting it on every ride, very sturdy although quite heavy as a result, yet very comfortable.

Also, any thoughts on these Draggin Jeans kevlar woven Chinos that can be fitted with with knee and hip armour? Suitable for city rides only or good for a full commute?

https://www.dragginjeans.net/mens/chino ... e.tpl.html

They do look good. and I'm going to look like a squid in these regardless.



I think we adults are free to make informed decisions on what's suitable for our personal safety. And we are free to judge each other, either in thought or passed along.

Yes my mind is all over the place. Sorry for this nonsensical post.

[tbln930]

Shifting gears and messing with chains can be considered a real PIA too. Depends on your wants. Wind protection is another issue. On my terrain here on real twisty steep hills shifting gears is a major pain when you are trying to video and do scenic touring with other riders.

[dkazzed]

I'm going to find out about the shifting gears part this coming weekend. I love driving my manual transmission Mazda 3 which is my wife's daily driver but find sequential shifters they put in automatic cars these days overly complicated so I don't bother to use it. I hope sequential shifters in motorcycles make more sense.

We have lots of hills and mountains around here too. Why would taking video while riding a motorcycle be more complicated than on a scooter? I assume it's a GoPro or something similar mounted on your helmet or chest or bike or whereever.

The top of my legs end up getting cold on my BWS anyway. But while 95% of motorcyclists go into hibernation in the winter around here, scooterists tend to be a constant year round. Plus a week ago I used my scooter to grab a few pizzas nearby. Yes I was squidding in jeans. But my point is, no motorcyclist is going to do the same.

With my new boots, and the right gear/office wear, ATGATTing can be just as convenient as squidding.

Signed, still conflicted

[tbln930]

I owned two Yamaha TW200s and two of a previous model (250s) back in the 80s and another Yamaha 175 in college. I still may get one of those again as a play bike. The only answer is multiple bikes.

Right now I am looking at a Burgman 650 but I don't really need it (it is just there at a bargain and a bit on the heavy side at that). I did my time on Harley's and have no desire for more abuse. About a 250-300 lb bike is perfect for the RV/camping we do (PCX) and a 400-600 lb for touring the Ozarks (Forza) and then something combo/off road for play and my wants are covered. Nothing heavier. I don't commute.

[WhiteNoise]

dkazzed, you crack me up!

Confused you say? Join the club! Oh, Wait! You have!!
To squid or not to squid, is that the ?
Manual or auto, is that the ?
So be it. I get it. You get it?
Cool

[Mel46]

When i was working as an engineer we had quite a few bike riders who rode their motorcycles to work, changed clothes at work, and stored their riding gear at work while working. Many would use their cars once a week to swap out clothes for the week. I know that most places don't have a lot of storage room for personal clothing, though. What about putting a pair of dress pants under your seat and wearing the rest of your work attire when you are riding to work? If you wore jeans under your protective suit, you could change in the bathroom after taking off your protective suit outside by your bike...just a thought.

[Sh3p]

From the comments I've read from motorcyclists:

1. Squids are idiots, and
2. If you're going to ATGATT, why not get a real bike?

Which is my dilemma when I compare the oh so attractive $3699 Suzuki GW250 vs. the $3899 Honda PCX150. On one hand, if I'm going to ATGATT, then it's tempting to just get a motorcycle that's more capable and fun to ride especially if it costs a couple hundred less and comes with 5 years warranty. On the other hand, scooters still make better grocery getters or errand runners in the neighbourhood or downtown core.

From my observation, scooterists downtown tend to be squids, I feel completely overdressed compared to most of them on my commute home but at the same time my commute home is 5x longer than the average scooterist I'm guessing. With motorcycles starting to come out with the beautiful weather we've been having joining the motorcyclists crazy enough to ride through the entire winter, I feel like I'm fitting in more.

Side notes:

I got a used pair of Alpinestars slip on riding boots, they're oh so easy to put on that I'll have no qualms putting it on every ride, very sturdy although quite heavy as a result, yet very comfortable.

Also, any thoughts on these Draggin Jeans kevlar woven Chinos that can be fitted with with knee and hip armour? Suitable for city rides only or good for a full commute?

https://www.dragginjeans.net/mens/chino ... e.tpl.html

They do look good. and I'm going to look like a squid in these regardless.



I think we adults are free to make informed decisions on what's suitable for our personal safety. And we are free to judge each other, either in thought or passed along.

Yes my mind is all over the place. Sorry for this nonsensical post.

You drive a pretty strong point.
No, squids are not idiots, the vast majority of riders (scoots and motos) started riding with zero knowledge and gear. Most of the time an ATTGAT rider is a former squid. Its nurture, not nature, and yes, everyone makes their own decisions based on their knowledge vs opinion on the topic.
"2. If you're going to ATGATT, why not get a real bike?"
Because there is not really specific science to falling off a bike, it can happen in any number of scenarios. Speed is only a small factor in the equation of how you , but speed is usually one of the only factors that are considered in the Scooter vs. Motorcycle argument of crashing. You can easily break a bone at 20-30mph if you hit a curb, car, pole, or tumble without the right protection. Gearing up properly is really the only umbrella insurance you can have for the multitude of ways to get hurt. Riding smart helps, but by no means makes you safer from left-turners, SMIDSY, drunk drivers, and inattentive/inept drivers, and texting / on the phone / don't pay attention / or just plain suck at driving types.

This is a separate topic, but scoots vs motos is kind of apples vs oranges. They function very similarly, but serve very different purposes and demographics. Cant grocery get too well on a moto, and can't canyon carve very well on a scooter. I have both in my garage (PCX belongs to my lady) and i sometimes steal the scoot to do mail/grocery runs within a mile or two.

IMO, "comfort" and "normal" are states of mind. I have been ATGATT for a few years now and it feels "strange" and "naked" for me when i feel the wind thru my hair or between my fingers. The enclosed personal bubble (and earplugs) is my comfort and normal, and that came in time. I find the added peace of mind helps me concentrate, listen to music now and then, and use GPS voice turnbyturn when necessary.
Full gear sometimes inspires overconfidence (especially in sport bikers) and can lead to riding over
My lady wears full gear when scootering and for her its the same peace of mind. She has seen me in the hospital from crashing without gear and has seen me walk away from multiple crashes on track in a 1piece suit, needed no talk about gear when she got the PCX.
Contrary to what i may have insinuated, good gear does not have to be expensive. My lady spent some time on craigslist and eBay and got all of her gear within a $350 budget.

Those Draggin jeans are pretty good, I own Drayko's myself which are basically the same jean with a different name. I also wear RS taichi hard knee pads under them. Dainese makes some really good (and pricey) jeans and pants with a new type of honeycomb flex armor.
I have not seen any jeans that have hip / tailbone armor on them. Those armor bits are usually in the textile and leather pants, jeans are a special kind of category, as they are supposed to look like you aren't wearing moto pants when you really are.

I believe that riding gear is a combination of two big factors:
1. Your knowledge and opinion on gear and crashing
2. The friends ("buddies") you ride with

I have learned that the scooter community is a good group, but does not have the same social event bond and communal ride and support group that the motorcycle community does. So the "riding buddies" do not always apply to a scooterist. That leaves most of the decision to opinion and knowledge. Which is why I started this thread.
I'm very glad to have been of service and help inform some folks who did not have the experience or knowledge about gearing up. I have also learned a great deal and a new perspective from all the feedback.
So for that. Thank you, everyone.

[dkazzed]

Ugh, I've lost my response twice now so I'm just going to do a Coles notes.

SECoda, I wish two bikes were an option at this point! PCX150 for my year round rider + GW250 for March to September would be awesome. But 1. I can't afford two bikes and 2. I can't afford insurance for two bikes. I kid you not, insuring PCX150 alone here will cost double what you pay to insure your PCX150 and Forza combined. And my wife wouldn't quite approve, which vetos everything else.

WhiteNoise, what if we were really upside down but just conditioned to think we're right side up? Does that mean we fall up and stand down? I still don't get it, or maybe I do.

Mel46, I wear my office clothes under what passes for my riding gear right now and just slip out of it at my cubicle. I used to use the locker/shower/change room that the cyclists use but I felt like an intruder in there with my non-fitness ways.

And Sh3p, I didn't call squid idiots, just summarizing comments from Youtube, forums, etc. I'm still a squid myself with what passes for my riding gear right now. Although I just picked up used Alpinestars I think 10" high hard leather riding boots over the weekend and may pick up a pair of armoured gloves tomorrow from the same guy. Also, I have a jacket and pants in my shopping cart at Canada's Motorcycle online store. I found that perfect riding jacket that doesn't look like a riding jacket that fits my budget, Alpinestars Mora.

[iceman]

I do not have the best armoured clothes, but would not feel comfortable riding in town without some basic protection. As I often cut myself at work from knocks and such at zero mph!, the thought of scraping hands, arms, elbows on tarmac at 20-40mph+ seems to suggest you have to be crazy to not have basic protection on some parts of your body.

Here in the UK, for some years now helmets are compulsory, but thick gloves, elbow protection and some form of knee and leg protection would seem the minimum for those few seconds an accident may happen. Better to spend £150-300 than end up with permanent scars or loss of flesh.

I have an armoured textile jacket and trousers, but had to remove the in-built knee protection as it did not stay in the right place. I'm thinking of adding it back and wearing velcro straps on the outside of the trousers (below the knee) to hold the protection in the right place - cheap solution for £5, but I do have external quick removal CE armoured knee/shin protectors that I will use in the summer. I'm still not convinced a textile jacket with CE approved elbow protection will completely protect you from skin damage in a fall, but it's better than nothing. I wonder just how good textile jackets are in falls at any decent speed?

[Sh3p]

@dkazzzled
No of course not. I was just elaborating on the definition. Truthfully, i think squids are idiots when they repeat the same mistakes or genuinely know better, but choose to make poor gear decisions.

I wonder just how good textile jackets are in falls at any decent speed?

For scooting around at low to moderate speeds, most textile jackets will do a fine job. For extended sliding and hard impacts, they dont fair that well. Obviously leather is better but that doesnt make textiles complete garbage, just typically not as resilient in comparison.
I would expect your average textile to hold up after a fall or two at least, and they are usually lighter, breathe/vent better.

Side note: Although its personal preference and either would do fine for scootering, a leather CE rated jacket will usually last much longer and take more abuse. If you have the potential to get into a larger bike, sportbike, or track riding, leather with CE armor is definetly the way to go. Most tracks and orgs will not allow you to take a motorcycle on track with textile gear.

[dkazzed]

@dkazzzled
No of course not. I was just elaborating on the definition. Truthfully, i think squids are idiots when they repeat the same mistakes or genuinely know better, but choose to make poor gear decisions.

Which makes me an idiot. It's been more indecision, I mean prolonged research. But I finally found what I want to buy.

For scooting around at low to moderate speeds, most textile jackets will do a fine job. For extended sliding and hard impacts, they dont fair that well.

Sigh, back to my research. lol.

Obviously leather is better but that doesnt make textiles complete garbage, just typically not as resilient in comparison. I would expect your average textile to hold up after a fall or two at least, and they are usually lighter, breathe/vent better.

So just get a textile for now and leather when I can afford it? I'd prefer a nice leather jacket but it only works for the 120 days a year it doesn't rain in Vancouver, so textile waterproof is what I need right now. I only wish the nicer leather jackets like the River Road Vintage Hoodlum and Joe Rocket Old School were armoured. My understanding from leather jackets is that they provide superior abrasion resistance without the armour but armour is required for impact protection?

Although the Joe Rocket Sport Leather armoured jacket looks stylish enough.

[Sh3p]

I've only had textiles from sport brands like Aplinestars and Icon. Had a Joe rocket back when it was very popular, the brand seems to be bouncing back after a few years of no new product. My experience with textile stuff is limited to these brands only.

I think it sounds like your needs call for a weatherproof textile. Weatherproofing is one thing that leather jackets dont do well, although the curing and paint will repel water, the seams are not sealed and the interior will eventually soak up the water, they get soggy in a long rainy ride.
I would start at Revzilla, which has video reviews for pretty much everything, and then price hunt from there. Some of the stuff i see my fiends wearing are Rev'it, Klim, and Rukka, as a reference.