Tuning the Forza 300 CVT

DioTiAma · Post by **DioTiAma** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:28 pm

BRed, that's me posting in a greek forum... on the 10th of November... reaching 157 km/h@9.500 r/min where the rpm limiter was activated (on a downhill & with tailwind)! I did it two more times (always@9.500 r/min): 153 km/h and 155 km/h (different enviroment conditions).

BRed · Post by **BRed** » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:48 pm

Thanks....that's good to know!
9500 rpm!

the lighter the weights, the higher the shiftpoint and the higher the revs required to reach high gear (top of the pulley)...
most weight combinations (within reason?) will completely close the variator....eventually?

the trick with sliders and lighter weight combos is to get them to do it before your engine reaches redline!

That's fast for a 279cc!
Are you running stock weights? Any drive mods?

DioTiAma · Post by **DioTiAma** » Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:02 am

Yes. Stock weights, no driving modifications (still holding a bit more).

sesdave · Post by **sesdave** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:31 am

I am now addicted to the acceleration that 6x17gm gives me so I think I will give the 6x19gm a miss lol What will be the main difference between using 3x15g rollers/3x19g slider mix and 6x17g sliders as they both have a total weight of 102gms?

BRed · Post by **BRed** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:16 am

Huge difference.....the whole point of this thread, in fact!

with the slider roller mix, when you punch it hard acceleration will be close to what you now have, but the revs should be flat at ~6500 rpm the first 8-10 seconds or out to ~ 70mph.

That's means the engine will probably be turning about 500 rpm lower at 75mph than with all sliders.
That means better fuel mileage, but the best thing is when you pull out gradually, with mixed weights, the variator will shift as if it has all 19gram weights....the shiftpoint will be close to 5800rpm.

The main advantage to all this....
mixed weights allow the variator to react to how the throttle is applied.

sesdave · Post by **sesdave** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:34 am

Haha - thats what I thought just confirming I actually understand the thread lol!. Would I be also right in thinking it will also give me back my top end as I am not going to run out of revs before I hit 140 with that mix.

BRed · Post by **BRed** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:17 pm

Yes, you will regain most of the topend back......
going to all sliders dropped your gearing right across the entire range of the variator.

The three rollers will be taller than the three sliders and will restore the original gearing so you won't redline before you reach 85.

sesdave · Post by **sesdave** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:04 am

Stock Forza no mods apart from exaust doing 157kpm with some to spare - the only way my forza and all my friends forza's could do that stock would be if we drove them over a cliff lol.

DioTiAma · Post by **DioTiAma** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:28 pm

Not even an exhaust Dave! BUT, on a downhill (~10%) & with tailwind (~5-6 Beaufort) & me like a "surfboard" on the saddle (!). Try it. You will do the same. Haven't been able to repeat that because of the limitation of a wider rear tire (reached 151km/h once though)!

BRed · Post by **BRed** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:04 pm

Top speed on mine before variator mod was 84mph on a flat road with a solid 90 second run up...
after variator mod top speed was 87mph on same road with ~50 second run up.

But there was more.....
I ran out of balls before the Forza did.

DioTiAma · Post by **DioTiAma** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:28 pm

Today, 150kg load (two persons plus luggage), full throttle for about 20-25 minutes (125-145km/h). BRed, is that bad?

BRed · Post by **BRed** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:56 pm

2 up @ 70-75mph isn't bad.....
it would interesting to know the rpm and fuel consumption while cruising at that speed with that load.

Part of the idea of lighter weights is that most CVTs (as configured at purchase) go to high gear too soon.

There are many reasons for this but none of them have anything to do with performance....
compliance with air and noise pollution standards often determine the final configuration of the CVT.
R&D develop and build a great fast bike, then Sales and Compliance cripple it to get it sold in other countries with varying regulations.
Going to high gear ASAP keeps noise levels low until the bike is moving at highway speeds, but that has consequences for the rider.

Think of it as having a 4 speed transmission...you pull out, winding out 1st gear, then winding out 2nd, then bypass 3rd and slipping it directly into 4th gear...that's what most CVTs do.

Great for fuel mileage, but now you've got a long slow crawl up to top speed.
Lighter weights extend the time your gearing is in transition, effectively bumping the range downward.
This is how it's possible to get higher speeds sooner by going to lighter weights.....
you might trim the top 5% off your possible speed, but you can reach 95% of that possible speed in half the time.
that's the trade off.

DioTiAma · Post by **DioTiAma** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:06 pm

I fully comprehend the skepticism of the sliders/rollers combination. Apart from that, i also know a thing or two about modifications... 125-145km/h sets the engine revolutions@7,500-9,000/m. Consumption varied between 4,2-4,8L/100km.

sesdave · Post by **sesdave** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:14 pm

No scepticism about roller/weight combinations - thats what this thread is about. You stated you had no mods and got 157 with some to spare. That to me as an owner is very high for a Forza with no mods at all. Mad max bike - bangkok could only get that with a seriously modded Forza.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BTFAx1xlAA
You have been very fortunate to get one that can hit that top end .

DioTiAma · Post by **DioTiAma** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:35 pm

Dave, believe me when i'm saying, probably i'm one of THE most unlucky ones! Took the bike THREE times (in two different authorized dealer shops) for the coolant / oil leak problem (the second time they scratched two plastics & lost a brake guide hook)! It took them NINE MONTHS to fix my bike & that's thank to me too (25%) since a guy from Canada (from this forum) explained to me in details what is the problem with the water pump shaft & the oil / coolant seals (& then i explained it to my mechanic). I wouldn't buy a Honda again not even if i become a billionaire.

sesdave · Post by **sesdave** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:21 pm

This is a thread about sharing experiences of CVT tuning - wrong place to be stating incredible stock speeds with no mods. Post some GPS speed test videos on Youtube like Mad Max did and you will get some hits for sure.

DioTiAma · Post by **DioTiAma** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:22 pm

Man, you've got issues. You need to be checked!

Mario · Post by **Mario** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:38 am

BRrd, thanks for sharing this great info on tuning the variator from the Forza 300

I like to order the sliders and rollers for my Forza 300 abs (2015) but it's not clear to me witch one to take

I have found this one's but they say it's for the older Forza 250 "Dr.Pulley Sliding roll SR2318/6-19" http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... cts_id=603

And this I found for the rollers "MALOSSI ROLLER WEIGHT SET 16G 23X18MM" http://www.ebay.nl/itm/MALOSSI-ROLLER-W ... 28032b3523

will this fit and give a good combo?

Br,

Mario

BRed · Post by **BRed** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:04 pm

Those weights you posted should work well.....
if you can find carbon jacketed rollers, they"act" heavier and move up the ramps a little faster and farther.

They almost act like greased rollers, but are more consistent and don't need repeated service every few hundred miles to keep the same performance.

there is an old tuner trick of running very light weights, but greasing them (using lubrication).
the end result is you get a very fast run with a very high top speed while running weights that are technically too light.

the problem is, it won't stay that way....
to KEEP the results of greased rollers (or sliders) you have to disassemble the variator every 300-500 miles and regrease the weights. Since our variators were not designed for greased weights, we are more likely to contaminate the pulley faces, drive belt and clutch pads with lubrication. That could require major service and new parts.....at the very least, a thorough cleaning of the CVT.

While it is a clever tuning trick and makes for awesome YOU-Tube videos, greased weights are not what you want for your daily rider.

Mario · Post by **Mario** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:32 am

I think for now I buy 6x DR.Pulley sliders and wait for your result on the new 2418 sliders because I can't get any Adige 23 X 18-15/16 gram (VE-399/C2) rollers or other brand carbon rollers, and like you said the carbon rollers act like greased rollers so the outcome (for me) will be unpredictable with other materials

I know your advice is to change the standard rollers for 6x 21G sliders but my Dutch supplier only have the following weight's on stock "15 15.5 16 16.5 17 18 21.5 22 22.5 23 23.5 24 25 26.G sliders"
To get any of the 19/20 and 21 gram sliders I have to wait at least 5 to six weeks

So the choice for now is 18 or 21.5 gram, if you can give me any prediction vs stock on this two weight's it would be very helpful

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