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 Post subject: running in
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:31 am 
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;) Have only managed 90 miles on my new PCX so far, due to having four kids who always want to go everywhere with me, groan.....
BUT, just got back from three week hol in the middle east, poor little scooter been sitting in the front garden, all alone and unloved under his cover.... Went out last night, after 3 weeks, started first time! I love it a little bit more each time I take it out! I know I am still supposed to be running the engine in, but it is irresistibly fast, and leaves cars standing at the lights!! Is it ok to do 50 mph occasionally, during the running in period? :o


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:48 am 
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Yes 50mph is OK.
Just ride it normally avoiding full throttle starts.

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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:18 am 
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I've got 350 miles on mine so far. I do avoid full throttle, but regularly do 50-55 on the way to work.


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:24 am 
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Breaking in is really common sense, read the manual, just don't do stupid stuff, jackrabbit starts or prolonged WOT operation. But don't be afraid to stretch its legs, babying it during running in can be bad too. Just use the whole powerband.

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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:34 am 
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Excuse my lack of knowledge, but what is WOT operation?


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:49 am 
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Wide open throttle.......

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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:10 pm 
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Oh I see. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:38 pm 
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Three main recommendations for breakin:
1. Don't use full throttle
2. Vary your throttle constantly, to allow breakin through all rev ranges
3. Get the first service done on time

Really though, don't worry too much. They're pretty well built from the factory, and plenty of people ride them WOT new with no issues.

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Previously rides: 2005 V-Strom DL650, 1974 Vespa Ciao, 2011 Honda PCX 170 (Takegawa 170cc big bore kit), 1996 Honda Nighthawk 250, 1987 Honda Spree, 2000 KTM 125SX, 2003 Honda Silverwing, 2007 Genuine Buddy 125, 1998 Honda PC800, 2008 Buddy 125 (white), 2008 Buddy 125 (red), 2001 Honda Reflex, 1987 Honda Elite, 1988 Honda Spree, 2007 Yamaha Vino, 2007 Honda Metro, 2x 125cc pure-chinesium dirt bikes
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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:37 pm 
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Hello - with apologies for resurrecting an ancient thread, I had a couple of questions about running in a new engine:

- How worried should one be about braking too hard? Obviously emergency stops need to happen if they need to happen. But I missed that bit of guidance (my OM is in Japanese...) and practiced some low-ish speed emergency stops yesterday just to establish braking distance etc. Is that a terrible thing?

- Does anyone have strong views about the "slow and steady for 500km" vs "ride it like you stole it for 20km" schools of thought for running in a PCX? I've seen compelling argument either way but not specific for PCX. Has anyone tried either and had particularly good results?

- The OM says first oil change at 500km or one month, whichever is soonest. What's the 'one month' thing about? I understand oil change is to rinse out metal particles dislodged from new engine which might otherwise damage engine parts. But is there a time factor to that process too?

Thanks for any thoughts!


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:45 pm 
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In my opinion, and after working for American Honda for six years, every one of your concerns is not really a concern. These engines are made to run all over the world, iall sorts of conditions, with many not getting very good maintenance. Also they are not stressed whatsoever making 13 hp. Change the oil when you can, in a reasonable amount of time, change it regularly, just use the bike as you normally would And don’t do any extreme performance for the first 600 miles.

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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Gaikoku wrote:
How worried should one be about braking too hard? Obviously emergency stops need to happen if they need to happen. But I missed that bit of guidance (my OM is in Japanese...) and practiced some low-ish speed emergency stops yesterday just to establish braking distance etc. Is that a terrible thing?


In my opinion it's a very very good thing - on my motorcycle safety blog my tag line for brakes was "we just can't live without them ... LITERALLY" - and on a motorbike there are going to be numerous occasions where the ability to brake hard and remain in control will be the only thing that avoids a serious crash. So the more practice the better (providing it's done safely)

Quote:
Does anyone have strong views about the "slow and steady for 500km" vs "ride it like you stole it for 20km" schools of thought for running in a PCX? I've seen compelling argument either way but not specific for PCX. Has anyone tried either and had particularly good results?


http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Mine was used WOT a LOT during the break-in period. 34,000km later there's no change in engine power (still on original spark plug too) and oil burn is averaging 65ml per 4,000km over the past 8,000km (I track it).

Quote:
The OM says first oil change at 500km or one month, whichever is soonest. What's the 'one month' thing about? I understand oil change is to rinse out metal particles dislodged from new engine which might otherwise damage engine parts. But is there a time factor to that process too?


I'm not 100% sure, but it's normal for water to get in the oil from condensation in some environments - and if the bike isn't used for long enough for the water to boil off then it can accumulate - so that's one reason to change it even if it hasn't done a lot of miles.


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Unlike a clutch bike you are naturally seating your rings on a twist-n-go with the aggressive WOT acceleration and deceleration habits of city traffic. No long highway runs or endless country roads for the first 300 and dump the oil at 600 for sure. Then ride the crap out of it and I think your compression check will verify a very nice number around 160 psi. Anything less than that you failed ;) but I'm sure it will be more on a new PCX.

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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:03 pm 
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homie wrote:
Unlike a clutch bike you are naturally seating your rings on a twist-n-go with the aggressive WOT acceleration and deceleration habits of city traffic. No long highway runs or endless country roads for the first 300 and dump the oil at 600 for sure. Then ride the crap out of it and I think your compression check will verify a very nice number around 160 psi. Anything less than that you failed ;) but I'm sure it will be more on a new PCX.


Interestingly, when one of my favourite toys was returned to us at the Aero Club complete with 2 completely overhauled engines (at $35,000 each) we were given instructions that the engines were to be run at full power for a minimum of 2 hours, with the aircraft at low level (it's a dirty job, but someone has to do it!) (Unfortunately, it wasn't me).

A page from an aircraft manufacturer website seems to back this up:

https://www.lycoming.com/content/hard-f ... gine-break - in particular:

Quote:
For those who still think that running the engine hard during break-in falls into the category of cruel and unusual punishment, there is one more argument for high power settings during engine break-in. The use of low power settings does not expand the piston rings enough, and a film of oil is left on the cylinder walls. The high temperatures in the combustion chamber will oxidize this oil film so that it creates a condition commonly known as glazing of the cylinder walls. When this happens, the ring break-in process stops, and excessive oil consumption frequently occurs. The bad news is that extensive glazing can only be corrected by removing the cylinders and rehoning the walls. This is expensive, and it is an expense that can be avoided by proper break-in procedures.


I've never seen the logic behind "taking it easy" on a new engine. The acceleration and deceleration (by my understanding) isn't so much "ideal" as it is "all that can realistically be done on most motorbikes" (they're just too overpowered to be able to maintain WOT for any length of time). On the PCX I'd suggest getting on a highway - going WOT - and leaving it there until there's only enough gas left to make it to the next gas station. After that, change the oil and do whatever you like with it.


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:05 pm 
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The quoted article also says "Cruise power settings above 65%, and preferably in the 70% to 75% of rated power range, should be used to achieve a good engine break-in."

That's not WOT..... Also, isn't that Lycoming engine equipped with a diameter & pitch propeller that prevents the engine from revving past its peak HP/Torque during a normal climb-out or even level flight ..... so the engine doesn't rev into right side of it's power curve - which isn't even in the "rated power range"? I didn't read a recommendation to climb to high altitude, put the throttle to WOT and then dive the aircraft to rev it on the curve's right side.

I'm not sure about your personal recommendation to ignore Honda's owner's manual, and instead achieve PCX engine break-in via an extended WOT.


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:00 pm 
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springer1 wrote:
The quoted article also says "Cruise power settings above 65%, and preferably in the 70% to 75% of rated power range, should be used to achieve a good engine break-in."

That's not WOT..... Also, isn't that Lycoming engine equipped with a diameter & pitch propeller that prevents the engine from revving past its peak HP/Torque during a normal climb-out or even level flight ..... so the engine doesn't rev into right side of it's power curve - which isn't even in the "rated power range"? I didn't read a recommendation to climb to high altitude, put the throttle to WOT and then dive the aircraft to rev it on the curve's right side.

I'm not sure about your personal recommendation to ignore Honda's owner's manual, and instead achieve PCX engine break-in via an extended WOT.


For something more related to motorcycle engines, have a read of this page:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

The point I'm trying to make is that people should take a step back and have a think about just what they're trying to achieve here. I'd like to think that it's pretty indisputable that we're trying to condition cylinders and bed in rings. And that requires pressure. And maximum pressure come from WOT.

Incidentally, that in no way contradicts the owners manual. There's no way Honda can come out and say "you must run the bike WOT for the first couple of hours" - they'd open themselves up to one hell of a liability if someone died doing that on one of their bikes.


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:14 am 
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Jge64 wrote:
In my opinion, and after working for American Honda for six years, every one of your concerns is not really a concern. These engines are made to run all over the world, iall sorts of conditions, with many not getting very good maintenance. Also they are not stressed whatsoever making 13 hp. Change the oil when you can, in a reasonable amount of time, change it regularly, just use the bike as you normally would And don’t do any extreme performance for the first 600 miles.



X2.

Don’t overthink it. It’s a scooter.

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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:20 am 
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I didn't deliberately did the break in on my pcx. Just use it normally as you intend to use it. Change the oil on the recommended schedule. It'll be fine.

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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:10 am 
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Well all we really need is two brand new PCX's to put this to rest, one very gently ridden and one very aggressively. The proof will be obvious on the compression gauge. So who will participate?

pledge your next new PCX... sign up now :)

We'll use your PCX to document the numbers. If you believe that engine will produce more than 160 psi in compression and the one nursed will be less or break even we can easily test that.

Here are the results of my harley engine I did a top-end rebuild and then very aggressively broke-in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGfHdk1 ... D9YXpKW0HR

The only thing that needs to be considered is all the other bearings and movable parts on a new vehicle. This was of no concern to me in the video because the bike had 25k miles when I decided to replace all the upper engines moving parts (lifters, rods, rocker bearings, pistons, rings & piston bearing)

What to consider is maybe it's not just about piston rings that the service manuals promote nursing the bikes on break-in. It might be all the other moving parts that need a gentle run-in. (crank bearing, gears, transmissions, final drives, belts, brakes, shocks, etc.)

Something to think about, but if I was purchasing a new PCX I would not nurse it too much just because I'm a believer in the moto-tune theory now from my personal experience concerning compression and well seated rings producing maximum compression and minimum blow by (that nasty recycling through the PVC valves back into your firing chambers) I hate that and did a breather re-route on the harley engine. It vents here now if there is much blow by at all :D


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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:03 am 
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If you really want to bake your noodle imagine if every new vehicle came with a required aggressive break-in statement in the owner's manual. A statement that outlines proper ring conditioning greatly reduces emissions (spent fuel getting around the cylinder walls contaminating the crankcase) vastly prolonging engine life and minimizing engine repairs over the life of the vehicle negating a PVC system.

Then imagine every new car owner unfamiliar with their vehicle racing it up and down the boulevard trying to do so... accident, death, insurance nightmare? Air pollution out of control? The story tells itself but don't look to electric vehicles to save us from the disposable engines and air pollution. To charge up millions of vehicles a day? It's not possible to deliver this kind of electricity grid on this planet... ever :lol: California thinks they will be the first to go full electric in 20 years by law :lol: this will not happen.

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 Post subject: Re: running in
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:47 pm 
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homie wrote:
Well all we really need is two brand new PCX's to put this to rest, one very gently ridden and one very aggressively. The proof will be obvious on the compression gauge. So who will participate?

pledge your next new PCX... sign up now :)

We'll use your PCX to document the numbers. If you believe that engine will produce more than 160 psi in compression and the one nursed will be less or break even we can easily test that.

Here are the results of my harley engine I did a top-end rebuild and then very aggressively broke-in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGfHdk1 ... D9YXpKW0HR

The only thing that needs to be considered is all the other bearings and movable parts on a new vehicle. This was of no concern to me in the video because the bike had 25k miles when I decided to replace all the upper engines moving parts (lifters, rods, rocker bearings, pistons, rings & piston bearing)

What to consider is maybe it's not just about piston rings that the service manuals promote nursing the bikes on break-in. It might be all the other moving parts that need a gentle run-in. (crank bearing, gears, transmissions, final drives, belts, brakes, shocks, etc.)

Something to think about, but if I was purchasing a new PCX I would not nurse it too much just because I'm a believer in the moto-tune theory now from my personal experience concerning compression and well seated rings producing maximum compression and minimum blow by (that nasty recycling through the PVC valves back into your firing chambers) I hate that and did a breather re-route on the harley engine. It vents here now if there is much blow by at all :D


From a statistical perspective we'd probably need to repeat the tests a few times but I'd have to say that on the face of it we can fairly confidently say that an aggressive break in certainly doesn't do any harm.

BTW - you voice reminds me of this chap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tzga6qAaBA

Always calm in high-tension situations!


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