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 Post subject: BWM Doesn't Do It Again!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:22 am 
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BMW just released an electric scooter they want you to know about...and hope to sell three of...

The C evolution is now arriving at select dealers in California. On three fully-charged and brand-new car batteries it couldn't make 100 miles, so they called it "99 luftballons, nah genug!" It'll do 80 MPH, but you won't get 99 miles with that.

It has four "moron-modes," where you tell the computer what you're trying to do and it then restricts what you get to do. For instance, I drive a motorcycle, and if I want to go fast I twist the throttle. On the C evolution you change driving modes to inform the scooter you want to go fast, wait for the computer to agree that's acceptable, and then perhaps it lets you. On the motorcycle if I want to save fuel I drive conservatively, or on the scooter you can tell C-eve to devastate any sense of fun you might incur and putter along at a snail's pace. There are two other modes for the indecisive.

Recharge time is 9 hours, or a full work day if you don't go out for lunch (because you're busy recharging). Mind you, electric vehicle junkies love to flaunt how cheap it is to recharge, ten-cents, they'll claim. Rubbish. If you're pulling three kilowatts down the cord for 9 hours it ain't "nearly free."

Options include heated hand grips (which will reduce mileage by 50%) and a "comfort seat," because apparently you can't be comfortable while saving the environment, or at least not have a theoretical 99 mile range on fresh cells, which is why the stock seat consists of a piece of cardboard darkened up with a felt-tip marker.

Tire life isn't great given battery weight, but battery life is pretty good, estimated at 30,000 miles or 5 years. Since electric neophytes don't know how to brake properly it comes with ABS, and clocks in at just under $14,000, which is how BMW plans on limiting sales to five fingers or less.

You can ogle it online here:
https://tinyurl.com/ydzy9c6c

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:55 am 
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It has four "moron-modes," where you tell the computer what you're trying to do and it then restricts what you get to do.


I'm sure it's been mentioned before but IMHO ideas like this defeat the whole purpose and culture of what "Scootering" is about. Cheap to buy, cheap to maintain (although not necessarily easy), light, economical, and FUN! :geek:

If I wanted to buy a classic slightly more expensive scooter I'd get the Vespa 300. If I wanted to buy a classic slightly more expensive cruiser I'd get the Harley Wide Glide. Anything that goes off the charts in price or practicality gets into a zone that is truly out of my league. As the peasants were banging on the gates in France crying they had no bread to eat, Marie-Antoinette decreed "Well let them eat cake". . .. o_O

With all due respect to the engineers and nerds who have sweated to design this electronic marvel in the name of making a living and putting food on the table I have to say I liked the song more than the C evolution. 8)

Cue the balloons. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:06 am 
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These bikes are just practice for when gas is $10/ gallonUS, $2.50/ Liter. And more. Then we will all wish we had nice, affordable electric scooters so we can still get where we are going.

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:49 pm 
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Two points of interest:

- The bulbs are not LED.
- The electric scooter is liquid cooled.
- A person nearly needs an engineering degree to read and understand the Rider's Manual. (snuck that one in there on ya...)

Link to the Rider's Manual:
https://ownersmanuals2.com/get/bmw-c-ev ... nual-72398

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Zero Quotes their battery life at "A typical Zero S or Zero DS can travel over 200,000 miles with the batteries retaining 80% of their original maximum capacity.
.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/technology/
.

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:14 pm 
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sendler2112 wrote:
Zero Quotes their battery life at "A typical Zero S or Zero DS can travel over 200,000 miles with the batteries retaining 80% of their original maximum capacity.
.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/technology/
.
*on a trailer.

Most scooter manufacturers are quoting around 30K mile life, car manufacturers about 110K miles, which is quite good, all things considered. 200K is a wild-ass pipe dream with gerbils.

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:31 pm 
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It depends what quality cells are used and how they are managed as to charge/ discharge level and rate. The nissan Leaf gave EV's a bad name with their LiMn cells which were chosen for safety over anything else. Chevy Volts with LiFe cells with 200k miles are still producing 100%. But they are plug in hybrids so the batteries really have an easy life. Most Tesla's over 100k miles still have 90% capacity. . You have to keep in mind that with an 80 mile range of the Zero, 200k miles is only 2,500 cycles which is probably about right for 80% remaining for the cutting edge cells they use. This is no rinky dink Chinese scooter.
.
.
There are many studies on Teslas since they report automatically.
.
Image
.
.

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:21 pm 
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sendler2112 wrote:
It depends what quality cells are used and how they are managed as to charge/ discharge level and rate. The nissan Leaf gave EV's a bad name with their LiMn cells which were chosen for safety over anything else. Chevy Volts with LiFe cells with 200k miles are still producing 100%. But they are plug in hybrids so the batteries really have an easy life. Most Tesla's over 100k miles still have 90% capacity. . You have to keep in mind that with an 80 mile range of the Zero, 200k miles is only 2,500 cycles which is probably about right for 80% remaining for the cutting edge cells they use. This is no rinky dink Chinese scooter.
.
.
There are many studies on Teslas since they report automatically.
.
Image
.
.
I trust no chart that reports mileage in kilometers.

Hybrids are primarily powered by fuel with secondary storage batteries , so rating battery longevity has to based primarily of amp-hours in/amp-hours out, rate of charge/discharge, depth of charge/discharge, and environment, which is pretty complex.

Tesla is in an odd position, because the vehicles seem to chew through drive units rather than batteries, and if under warranty batteries seem to be replaced "just for convenience" without reporting this to the owners. Really...? I'd guess they're going to fail and Tesla wants to uphold a stellar service record, which is certainly hard-earned. From what I understand the software doesn't report the true battery health, rather the health on a scale of rated usability, kind of a "window" into the much larger charge/discharge ability of the battery. If a new battery has a 300 mile range the software may report a 230 mile "usable window" before a recharge is "required." This extends the battery life as the Depth-Of-Discharge isn't as great and the battery isn't "worked as hard." (In reality this has to do more with higher internal heating at a greater D-O-D, and heat is an enemy.) As the battery ages it perhaps has 245 miles in it, but the software still reports around 230 (maybe now 220 so the D-O-D isn't so great) and "the battery still looks healthy." The problem sets in when the battery lasts 220 miles on a full charge and the software allows the driver to use the full D-O-D, because now the battery chemistry is being fully worked, and the internal falloff-rate is exponentially increasing because of the full battery cycles. We see this in cell phones when suddenly they don't last nearly as long as they used to and every week there's noticeably less battery life.

Tesla has excellent service and truly goes beyond honoring their warranty from everything I've heard. Despite owners and perhaps the company wanting a shroud of mystery around battery life because "they last forever thanks to magical unicorn dust," it seems they have the same battery longevity as everyone else, 100K reliable miles, another 20K semi-reliable miles, and it's hit-or-miss after that, generally "miss and dropped dead."

Knowing the true longevity plays heavy into Total-Cost-Of-Ownership, and we know electric car companies play heavy on government subsidies with "Free Charging Stations" (in exchange for campaign donations) to artificially keep T-C-O down. That's a real ball of string to untangle, the car company "pays" for the energy bill, but the energy is subsidies by the government (meaning taxpayers), and the car company gets "green energy tax breaks and subsidies," and the politician gets campaign donations and a cushy $200K/year job once they leave political office that they never technically have to show up for. Yup, leave office, get paid. In office? Your friend gets paid, and that gets funneled back to your pocket. Someone is paying the bill, and it is we, the taxpayer.

Anyway, T-C-O costs are hidden at most any cost so that it looks like electric vehicles are inexpensive, when in reality it's smoke-and-mirrors to make a few rich guys richer at taxpayer expense. Yes, technology is getting better, but whenever energy changes state there's a huge loss of power (the efficiency factor), and changing from fossil fuel to steam to electricity to transformers to power lines to transformers to more transformers to battery (chemical) back to electrical to magnetic to motion is a lot more loss than fossil to heat to motion. Bottom line, Electrical Vehicles still suck.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/1 ... lub?page=2

https://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-happe ... 1798662230

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... y-dont-use

NOTE: I actually like Electric Vehicles and own several different types, and am in no way against EV. It's costly, but rather fun. I simply want truth in reporting--report the facts, and the whole story.


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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Many of the Volt owners have 100,000 miles of ev operation with 0% degradation. So why did you post links to Teslas with high mileage talking about no repairs and 200,000 hard miles with only a 6% loss? You make my point. These are not high discharge hobby batteries. A123 AMP20 cells make 5,000 80% cycles to 70%.

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:32 am 
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I like to back up my statements with sources where possible, I don't always have time for going into great depth, but it gives people a starting point if they're interested in finding out more. Tesla has lots issues that are "quietly managed" while repairing other issues under the guise of "convenience." What is really meant is "it's convenient to fix it now before it leaves you stranded."

Miles are a measure of distance, kilometers are a shorter measure per unit of distance. Let's not confuse 100,000 K with 100K miles.

100K miles with 0% degradation is impossible, that's a ridiculous claim. That is not true battery status, it is the software reporting "full capacity within an operating window." Since most people don't know what an operations envelope or "window" is, they simply repeat what they're told--"if you repeat a lie enough it becomes fact." Bullcrap.

6% degradation at 100K miles is for those who don't understand math, physics, or how to make their own coffee. If we're going to avoid science, let's use simplistic math:
Smaller battery claimed range: 240 miles
Larger battery claimed range: 300 miles
Degradation per 100,000 miles: 6%

Let's say the usable range is 120 miles, most people would be able to drop the kids off at school, go to work, pick the kids up and take them to soccer games, go shopping, and come home in say 60 miles? Therefore 120 miles is a 100% safety factor.

240 mile rated range / 120 mile actual range = 50% battery degradation.
100,000 miles / 6% degradation = 16,667 miles per 1% battery degradation.
(16,667 miles per percent degradation) * (50% degradation) = 833,333 miles

So the batteries ought to be usable to at least 800,000 miles, then the vehicle is given to dad for work as he commutes 30 miles a day, and the car's range is 120 miles at 50% battery deg., so he can get another 416,666 miles out of the car before the range is only 60 miles and he needs to start thinking about trading it in. He can still safely drive it another 100,000 miles without needing to plug it in at work! <-- Right there, 100,000 miles. That's the crazyness we're talking about and why I say this 6% number is blatant bullshit. On one hand we're talking battery life is a solid 100K miles, 150K max., and maybe if some awesome management is involved a few cars might get 200K, but that's not at all what we're seeing, we're seeing less than 150K mile battery life. That 6% number is saying you have more than 100,000 miles to think about what you might want to buy next, as you rack up one-million, four-hundred-thousand miles, safely. Bullshit. You're not getting the four-hundred-thousand miles part of that out of the batteries.

To make the point of how this 6% degradation math doesn't add up, cut the above estimation in half--that makes sense, right? You should be able to get half of the above mileage, at least? Nope, 400K is a third--less than a third, and you won't get that. You won't get half of that! That's one-sixth of the total mileage, you won't get it!

And to claim 0% degradation at 100K miles? Yeah, and you'll live to the ripe old age of 1,900 years by drinking water and eating soy. Those claims are beyond foolish, beyond childish, beyond any sort of reality.


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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:12 am 
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Well, you obviously know how to make coffee :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:42 am 
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sendler2112 wrote:
Well, you obviously know how to make coffee :lol: :lol:



LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:07 am 
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But I do have to admit that the Chevy Volt batteries will have a few percent of capacity loss after 100,000 miles. It is very minimal due to under-rating the capacity and careful battery management which uses only the center of the actual available capacity, staying well away from the extremes of high and low voltage cut off which is where the real battery cycle life wear occurs. And whatever few percent of accumulative loss that does exist is hidden by the software tapping into the hidden capacity.
.
Tesla and Chevy have proven with 1,000's of real world data samples that EV batteries can outlast ICE engines. Far from the claims that big EV batteries are throw away items at 30,000 miles.
.

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:28 pm 
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I'll take a cup :lol: and keep the pot on!
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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:56 pm 
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sendler2112 wrote:
Zero Quotes their battery life at "A typical Zero S or Zero DS can travel over 200,000 miles with the batteries retaining 80% of their original maximum capacity.
.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/technology/
.


At five years the guarantee on Zero batteries is as good as anything you'll find on any motorcycle component from any manufacturer.

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of ignorant prejudice.

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 pm 
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WI_Hedgehog wrote:
I like to back up my statements with sources where possible, I don't always have time for going into great depth, but it gives people a starting point if they're interested in finding out more. Tesla has lots issues that are "quietly managed" while repairing other issues under the guise of "convenience." What is really meant is "it's convenient to fix it now before it leaves you stranded."

Miles are a measure of distance, kilometers are a shorter measure per unit of distance. Let's not confuse 100,000 K with 100K miles.

100K miles with 0% degradation is impossible, that's a ridiculous claim. That is not true battery status, it is the software reporting "full capacity within an operating window." Since most people don't know what an operations envelope or "window" is, they simply repeat what they're told--"if you repeat a lie enough it becomes fact." Bullcrap.

6% degradation at 100K miles is for those who don't understand math, physics, or how to make their own coffee. If we're going to avoid science, let's use simplistic math:
Smaller battery claimed range: 240 miles
Larger battery claimed range: 300 miles
Degradation per 100,000 miles: 6%

Let's say the usable range is 120 miles, most people would be able to drop the kids off at school, go to work, pick the kids up and take them to soccer games, go shopping, and come home in say 60 miles? Therefore 120 miles is a 100% safety factor.

240 mile rated range / 120 mile actual range = 50% battery degradation.
100,000 miles / 6% degradation = 16,667 miles per 1% battery degradation.
(16,667 miles per percent degradation) * (50% degradation) = 833,333 miles

So the batteries ought to be usable to at least 800,000 miles, then the vehicle is given to dad for work as he commutes 30 miles a day, and the car's range is 120 miles at 50% battery deg., so he can get another 416,666 miles out of the car before the range is only 60 miles and he needs to start thinking about trading it in. He can still safely drive it another 100,000 miles without needing to plug it in at work! <-- Right there, 100,000 miles. That's the crazyness we're talking about and why I say this 6% number is blatant bullshit. On one hand we're talking battery life is a solid 100K miles, 150K max., and maybe if some awesome management is involved a few cars might get 200K, but that's not at all what we're seeing, we're seeing less than 150K mile battery life. That 6% number is saying you have more than 100,000 miles to think about what you might want to buy next, as you rack up one-million, four-hundred-thousand miles, safely. Bullshit. You're not getting the four-hundred-thousand miles part of that out of the batteries.

To make the point of how this 6% degradation math doesn't add up, cut the above estimation in half--that makes sense, right? You should be able to get half of the above mileage, at least? Nope, 400K is a third--less than a third, and you won't get that. You won't get half of that! That's one-sixth of the total mileage, you won't get it!

And to claim 0% degradation at 100K miles? Yeah, and you'll live to the ripe old age of 1,900 years by drinking water and eating soy. Those claims are beyond foolish, beyond childish, beyond any sort of reality.



"I don't always have time for going into great depth"

Thank feck for that

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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:27 am 
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Somehow this sneaked past my radar over 20 years ago. :geek:

Light, economical, environmentally friendly (considering very little goes into making it as well), and a Honda. Not electric driven. . .but at the time it was a novelty. ;)



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 Post subject: Re: It's Electric!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:35 am 
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Most everyone loves the coffee, but it's a lot of work for just one cup each batch. No bitterness at all and insanely strong (of course you can dilute it with cream...)

Thanks for the discussion, it's fun and even if we disagree I tend to take a lot from it.

It is a lot of work overcoming the brainwashing regarding battery powered vehicles not being as great as the manufacturers want people to think. Owners don't mind when normal things fail (like wheel bearings), are mildly annoyed when a drive component goes while under warranty--but will end ownership of the car when they have to pay for it, and when the battery dies outside of warranty and it's $10K to $20K to replace it, that's when they start hating electric vehicles because they were lied to about the Total Cost of Ownership, which is quite high. If you accept that electricity costs actual money, batteries really do need replacement, and things wear out (sometimes unexpectedly soon) you might not get an electric vehicle or you might part with the money and love it for all the coolness associated with it.

The PCX150 is great, really inexpensive to run and maintain, kind of fun! (Squirrel looks really sexy on hers, extra points there!)

Motorcycles are good, fairly inexpensive to run and maintain, kind of fun, fairly practical, and offer freedom. The heated winter gear up here is a continual outlay, but it's not bad.

Slingshots are fun as hell, have average running costs, but are generally expensive to maintain. Not that practical.

The 370Z is one fun package, expensive to buy, expensive to run, expensive to maintain, not at all practical.

The electric stuff...that's just fun and convenient for certain things. It's expensive to buy and maintain, and things break unexpectedly which is disappointing because you've already spent a wad on buying the damn thing. I don't know if you looked at your electric bill, but electricity is not cheap.


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